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Hello.
Does anybody have information about the waveform produced by the Theremin? I tried to google, but some places say it's a sinewave, and some others that it's not exactly it (and it in fact sounds richer). However, I cannot find any real analysis of the timbre of this instrument (weird...). Aren't there any csound orchestras for that? Cheers, Pedro |
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Hi there
I managed to make a pretty realistic theremin using cSound, you can hear on: www.myspace.com/josephsanger I eventually found, after a lot of googling, that it's basically a half sine wave, so it's as if the bottom part of the sine (below zero) is reflected back upwards again. It would be SO much easier to explain with a picture... Here's the ftable I used: f1 0 65536 19 .5 1 0 0 Hope this helps Joe Mahound wrote: > Hello. > Does anybody have information about the waveform produced by the Theremin? I > tried to google, but some places say it's a sinewave, and some others that > it's not exactly it (and it in fact sounds richer). However, I cannot find > any real analysis of the timbre of this instrument (weird...). Aren't there > any csound orchestras for that? > > Cheers, > > Pedro Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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In reply to this post by Mahound
The Theremin sound is produced by heterodyning. There is a fixed frequency
radio-frequency oscillator, and a variable frequency radio-frequency oscillator controlled by one hand. The audio frequency beats between the two RF oscillators (sum and difference tones) are heard. In audio signal processing terms, perhaps this could be modeled by amplitude modulation with some waveshaping distortion, or simply by a sine oscillator passed through waveshaping distortion. It would also be very easy to write a new opcode in C or C++ with high-frequency oscillators (based on difference equations) to model the Theremin directly. Regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mahound" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 4:40 AM Subject: [Csnd] Theremin sound > > Hello. > Does anybody have information about the waveform produced by the Theremin? > I > tried to google, but some places say it's a sinewave, and some others that > it's not exactly it (and it in fact sounds richer). However, I cannot find > any real analysis of the timbre of this instrument (weird...). Aren't > there > any csound orchestras for that? > > Cheers, > > Pedro > -- > View this message in context: > http://www.nabble.com/Theremin-sound-tp14875977p14875977.html > Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > Send bugs reports to this list. > To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe > csound" Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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Hello.
Yes, I've read that it's achieved through heterodyning. But in this case we're left again with a sinusoidal (which goes against Joseph's mail). I guess the secret is the kind of filtering that the signal suffers. What kind of distortion are you talking about? Thanks to both of you, Cheers, Pedro On Jan 16, 2008 2:11 PM, Michael Gogins <[hidden email]> wrote: > The Theremin sound is produced by heterodyning. There is a fixed frequency > radio-frequency oscillator, and a variable frequency radio-frequency > oscillator controlled by one hand. The audio frequency beats between the two > RF oscillators (sum and difference tones) are heard. In audio signal > processing terms, perhaps this could be modeled by amplitude modulation with > some waveshaping distortion, or simply by a sine oscillator passed through > waveshaping distortion. > > It would also be very easy to write a new opcode in C or C++ with > high-frequency oscillators (based on difference equations) to model the > Theremin directly. > > Regards, > Mike > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mahound" <[hidden email]> > To: <[hidden email]> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 4:40 AM > Subject: [Csnd] Theremin sound > > > > > > Hello. > > Does anybody have information about the waveform produced by the Theremin? > > I > > tried to google, but some places say it's a sinewave, and some others that > > it's not exactly it (and it in fact sounds richer). However, I cannot find > > any real analysis of the timbre of this instrument (weird...). Aren't > > there > > any csound orchestras for that? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Pedro > > -- > > View this message in context: > > http://www.nabble.com/Theremin-sound-tp14875977p14875977.html > > Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > > > > > Send bugs reports to this list. > > To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe > > csound" > > > > Send bugs reports to this list. > To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" > Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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Pedro Ferreira wrote:
> Hello. > Yes, I've read that it's achieved through heterodyning. But in this > case we're left again with a sinusoidal (which goes against Joseph's > mail). I guess the secret is the kind of filtering that the signal > suffers. What kind of distortion are you talking about? > Looking at the first track on the OHM disk set, (Clara Rockmore, "Valse Sentimentale" - and played ~extremely~ sentimetally!) it is a filtered sawtooth (very few harmonics). Difficult to be more precise with all that vibrato. Richard Dobson Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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OK... we currently have three theories:
- half-sine - sinusoidal through waveshaping distortion - filtered sawtooth (perhaps the last two ones are compatible?) But I heard that Rockmore's sound is slightly different from the "classic" theremin. Any ideas? Pedro On Jan 16, 2008 4:03 PM, Richard Dobson <[hidden email]> wrote: > Pedro Ferreira wrote: > > Hello. > > Yes, I've read that it's achieved through heterodyning. But in this > > case we're left again with a sinusoidal (which goes against Joseph's > > mail). I guess the secret is the kind of filtering that the signal > > suffers. What kind of distortion are you talking about? > > > > Looking at the first track on the OHM disk set, (Clara Rockmore, "Valse > Sentimentale" - and played ~extremely~ sentimetally!) it is a filtered > sawtooth (very few harmonics). Difficult to be more precise with all > that vibrato. > > Richard Dobson > > > > > Send bugs reports to this list. > To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" > Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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I just looked at the output of a PAIA Theremax on a scope. It looks just
like a sine wave except at really low frequencies where the positive peaks are gently flattened (which might be caused by the electrolytic capacitor on the output being too small). This theremin uses four coils. It also has a tone control which mixes a squarish wave with the sine wave to get a more triangular output. Martin Pedro Ferreira wrote: >OK... we currently have three theories: >- half-sine >- sinusoidal through waveshaping distortion >- filtered sawtooth > >(perhaps the last two ones are compatible?) > >But I heard that Rockmore's sound is slightly different from the >"classic" theremin. > >Any ideas? > >Pedro > >On Jan 16, 2008 4:03 PM, Richard Dobson <[hidden email]> >wrote: > > Pedro Ferreira wrote: > > > Hello. > > > Yes, I've read that it's achieved through heterodyning. But in this > > > case we're left again with a sinusoidal (which goes against Joseph's > > > mail). I guess the secret is the kind of filtering that the signal > > > suffers. What kind of distortion are you talking about? > > > > > > > Looking at the first track on the OHM disk set, (Clara Rockmore, "Valse > > Sentimentale" - and played ~extremely~ sentimetally!) it is a filtered > > sawtooth (very few harmonics). Difficult to be more precise with all > > that vibrato. > > > > Richard Dobson > > > > > > > > > > Send bugs reports to this list. > > To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe >csound" > > > > >Send bugs reports to this list. >To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe >csound" Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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In reply to this post by Mahound
Waveshaping by a Chebyshev polynomial, which generates harmonics off the sine tone.
Regards, Mike -----Original Message----- >From: Pedro Ferreira <[hidden email]> >Sent: Jan 16, 2008 9:28 AM >To: [hidden email] >Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Theremin sound > >Hello. >Yes, I've read that it's achieved through heterodyning. But in this >case we're left again with a sinusoidal (which goes against Joseph's >mail). I guess the secret is the kind of filtering that the signal >suffers. What kind of distortion are you talking about? > >Thanks to both of you, > >Cheers, > >Pedro > >On Jan 16, 2008 2:11 PM, Michael Gogins <[hidden email]> wrote: >> The Theremin sound is produced by heterodyning. There is a fixed frequency >> radio-frequency oscillator, and a variable frequency radio-frequency >> oscillator controlled by one hand. The audio frequency beats between the two >> RF oscillators (sum and difference tones) are heard. In audio signal >> processing terms, perhaps this could be modeled by amplitude modulation with >> some waveshaping distortion, or simply by a sine oscillator passed through >> waveshaping distortion. >> >> It would also be very easy to write a new opcode in C or C++ with >> high-frequency oscillators (based on difference equations) to model the >> Theremin directly. >> >> Regards, >> Mike >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mahound" <[hidden email]> >> To: <[hidden email]> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 4:40 AM >> Subject: [Csnd] Theremin sound >> >> >> > >> > Hello. >> > Does anybody have information about the waveform produced by the Theremin? >> > I >> > tried to google, but some places say it's a sinewave, and some others that >> > it's not exactly it (and it in fact sounds richer). However, I cannot find >> > any real analysis of the timbre of this instrument (weird...). Aren't >> > there >> > any csound orchestras for that? >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Pedro >> > -- >> > View this message in context: >> > http://www.nabble.com/Theremin-sound-tp14875977p14875977.html >> > Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > >> > >> > >> > Send bugs reports to this list. >> > To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe >> > csound" >> >> >> >> Send bugs reports to this list. >> To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" >> > > >Send bugs reports to this list. >To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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In reply to this post by Mahound
The last two are compatible.
Regards, Mike -----Original Message----- >From: Pedro Ferreira <[hidden email]> >Sent: Jan 16, 2008 10:26 AM >To: [hidden email] >Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: Theremin sound > >OK... we currently have three theories: >- half-sine >- sinusoidal through waveshaping distortion >- filtered sawtooth > >(perhaps the last two ones are compatible?) > >But I heard that Rockmore's sound is slightly different from the >"classic" theremin. > >Any ideas? > >Pedro > >On Jan 16, 2008 4:03 PM, Richard Dobson <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Pedro Ferreira wrote: >> > Hello. >> > Yes, I've read that it's achieved through heterodyning. But in this >> > case we're left again with a sinusoidal (which goes against Joseph's >> > mail). I guess the secret is the kind of filtering that the signal >> > suffers. What kind of distortion are you talking about? >> > >> >> Looking at the first track on the OHM disk set, (Clara Rockmore, "Valse >> Sentimentale" - and played ~extremely~ sentimetally!) it is a filtered >> sawtooth (very few harmonics). Difficult to be more precise with all >> that vibrato. >> >> Richard Dobson >> >> >> >> >> Send bugs reports to this list. >> To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" >> > > >Send bugs reports to this list. >To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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In reply to this post by Mahound
As it would have it, I started to dabble with recreating a theremin waveform a few days ago. Haven't gotten too far because of time restraints. I went ahead and created a graph of the output from the Big Briar Etherwave with various settings. You can download it here:
http://www.thumbuki.com/images/fullsize/BigBriarEtherwaveWaveforms.gif Hopefully it will help. And I'm personally going to be keeping track of this thread as I continue to move forward. Best, Jake ---- The Csound Blog http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog/
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An old message posted to the Csound list.(1999 or thereabouts).
;Some time ago, well actually last year, there was some question about a ;theremin orc/sco. ;I made an attempt to simulate a theremin, but lost it in a disc-crash. ;Here is a recreated version. I made it in Cecilia and modified the orc/sco ;a little, so sorry for the long tables. ;I had a frequency shifter also which used an am-modulated wave instead of the ;stable oscilator, but I haven't recreated it yet. ;Comments anyone? ; ; ;Roger Klaveness ; ; ;Here it comes, beware of wraping !! ; ;-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ;THEREMIN ORCHESTRA sr = 44100 kr = 4410.0 ksmps = 10 nchnls = 1 gisintab ftgen 0,0,4096,10,1 ;sinwave gipulltab ftgen 0,0,4096,9,0.5,1,0 ;for pulling distortion, see below instr 1 ;------------------------------------------------------------------------ ;Theremin simulation instrument, Roger Klaveness Nov.-1998, ;Converted to Cecilia and back again Jan.-1999 ;---------------------------------------------------------------------- ;Control parameters ;Originaly generated by Cecilia global instrument kpitch oscil1i 0,1,p3,1 ; 51 points kvib oscil1i 0,1,p3,3 ; 101 points kamp oscil1i 0,1,p3,2 ; 37 points kvibfreq oscil1i 0,1,p3,4 ; 51 points ;--------------------------------------------- ;random amp variation, for shaky hands kshakeamphand randh 0.1,10 kamp = ampdb(kamp+kshakeamphand) kvib oscil kvib,kvibfreq,gisintab ;random pitch variation, for shaky hands kshakepitchhand randh 0.01,10 kpitch = cpsoct(kpitch+kvib+kshakepitchhand) ;----------------------------------------------------------------------- ;Simulation of real theremin ;To oscilators in radiofreq are combined with heterodyning to make an audible difference wave ;One could use a high samplerate to make it more like the real thing but that requires ;something like sr=400kHz , and that is probably not necesarry ;the freqspace is divided in 3 ;0 - sr/6 : Audio freq we want, Diff-freq from modulation ;sr/6 - 2*sr/6 : Fixed and variable oscilator ;2*sr/6 - 3*sr/6 : Aliased Sum-freq from modulation ;Fixed oscilator sr/3 ;Variable oscilator should be in range sr/3 -> sr/3-2000 ;freq over sr/6 is filtered out ;--------------------------------------------- ;oscilators a1 oscil 1, sr/3, gisintab ; Fixed oscillator a2 oscili 1, (sr/3)-kpitch, gisintab ; Variable oscillator ;--------------------------------------------- ;pulling distorton ;look at http://www.paia.com/thereton.htm ;the two oscilators are mutualy influencing the other ;which causes distortion of their waveform ;this effect becomes greater as the freq get lower ;this is just experimentation from my side, and do probably ;not reflects the physics in this process kpull = ((2000/kpitch)-1)/80 ;more effect at low freq, no eff > 2000Hz = sinwave kpull = (kpull < 0 ? 0 : kpull) kpull = (kpull > 0.5 ? 0.5 : kpull) ; not greater than 0.5 pull-factor ap1shape table abs(a1),gipulltab,1 ; The osc get more affected at 45 degrees, just looked like that in illustration. ap2shape table abs(a2),gipulltab,1 ; One could experiment with different phases of gipulltab to get different waveform, or maybe modulate it also ap1 = a1+kpull*ap1shape*(a2*0.5+0.5) ap2 = a2+kpull*ap2shape*(a1*0.5+0.5) ;--------------------------------------------- ; Heterodyning = amplitudemodulation ap1 = (0.5*ap1)+0.5 amix = (ap1*ap2)*kamp ;------------------------------------------------------------------------ ;filter out unwanted freq ;10.order butterworth-lp, sr/6 ibgain=0.00001 iagain=-1 aout zfilter2 amix,1,1,10,10,ibgain*.0027,ibgain*.0273,ibgain*.1230,ibgain*.3281,ibgain*.5742,ibgain*.6891,ibgain*.5742,ibgain*.3281,ibgain*.1230,ibgain*.0273,ibgain*.0027,iagain*-7.4907,iagain*25.4989,iagain*-51.8964,iagain*69.8813,iagain*-65.0115,iagain*42.2946,iagain*-18.9909,iagain*5.6301,iagain*-0.9948,iagain*0.0795 ;passing frequencies above 25Hz , get away dc aout butterhp aout, 25 aout balance aout,amix ;------------------------------------------------------------------------ ;some tube-overdrive simulation anorm = aout / 32767 aout = aout - (anorm*anorm*anorm)*10922; some distortion : x-(x^3)/3 ;------------------------------------------------------------------------ ;output out aout ;------------------------------------------------------------------------ endin On Jan 17, 2008 4:03 AM, Jacob Joaquin <[hidden email]> wrote: > > As it would have it, I started to dabble with recreating a theremin waveform > a few days ago. Haven't gotten too far because of time restraints. I went > ahead and created a graph of the output from the Big Briar Etherwave with > various settings. You can download it here: > > http://www.thumbuki.com/images/fullsize/BigBriarEtherwaveWaveforms.gif > > Hopefully it will help. And I'm personally going to be keeping track of > this thread as I continue to move forward. > > Best, > Jake > ---- > The Csound Blog > http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog/ > > > > Mahound wrote: > > > > OK... we currently have three theories: > > - half-sine > > - sinusoidal through waveshaping distortion > > - filtered sawtooth > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Theremin-sound-tp14875977p14887220.html > Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > > Send bugs reports to this list. > To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" > Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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In reply to this post by Jacob Joaquin
The plot thickens... I briefly blogged about this thread yesterday, and then matrixsynth.com was nice enough to post a link to it. I got a response in my comments from GordonCharlton that lead me to more information about emulating a theremin. Thought it might be useful to the others in this discussion.
Waveforms of (a newer) moog etherwave http://www.flickr.com/photos/8666613@N04/2199492524/ theremin effects curves http://www.flickr.com/photos/8666613@N04/sets/72157601954673258/ ThereminWord: "theremin emulation discussion on csound mailing list" http://www.thereminworld.com/forum.asp?cmd=p&T=3104&F=1 comments @ thumbuki.com http://www.thumbuki.com/20080116/big-briar-etherwave-waveforms.html Best, Jake ---- The Csound Blog http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog/
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Hello List
It seems that all the evidence is pointing away from the half-sine-wave theory! Just for the record, though, (and to prove I wasn't completely making it up) I think I managed to find the video source which I originally looked at: http://homegarden.expertvillage.com/videos/theremin-special.htm Since a recent reinstall it doesn't seem to want to play on my computer, but there is a transcript at the bottom of the page. Yours, Joe Jacob Joaquin wrote: > The plot thickens... I briefly blogged about this thread yesterday, and then > matrixsynth.com was nice enough to post a link to it. I got a response in > my comments from GordonCharlton that lead me to more information about > emulating a theremin. Thought it might be useful to the others in this > discussion. > > Waveforms of (a newer) moog etherwave > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8666613@N04/2199492524/ > > theremin effects curves > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8666613@N04/sets/72157601954673258/ > > ThereminWord: "theremin emulation discussion on csound mailing list" > http://www.thereminworld.com/forum.asp?cmd=p&T=3104&F=1 > > comments @ thumbuki.com > http://www.thumbuki.com/20080116/big-briar-etherwave-waveforms.html > > > Best, > Jake > ---- > The Csound Blog > http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog/ > > > > Jacob Joaquin wrote: >> As it would have it, I started to dabble with recreating a theremin >> waveform a few days ago. Haven't gotten too far because of time >> restraints. I went ahead and created a graph of the output from the Big >> Briar Etherwave with various settings. You can download it here: >> > Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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Cool video. Well, your wave actually sounds like a Theremin... so, I
see no reason to reject it as a valid hypothesis :). Maybe the video refers to the "classic" theremin sound. I don't know, I'm getting confused now :). Cheers, Pedro On Jan 17, 2008 10:22 PM, Joseph Sanger <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hello List > > It seems that all the evidence is pointing away from the half-sine-wave > theory! > > Just for the record, though, (and to prove I wasn't completely making it > up) I think I managed to find the video source which I originally looked at: > > http://homegarden.expertvillage.com/videos/theremin-special.htm > > Since a recent reinstall it doesn't seem to want to play on my computer, > but there is a transcript at the bottom of the page. > > Yours, > > Joe > > Jacob Joaquin wrote: > > The plot thickens... I briefly blogged about this thread yesterday, and then > > matrixsynth.com was nice enough to post a link to it. I got a response in > > my comments from GordonCharlton that lead me to more information about > > emulating a theremin. Thought it might be useful to the others in this > > discussion. > > > > Waveforms of (a newer) moog etherwave > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8666613@N04/2199492524/ > > > > theremin effects curves > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8666613@N04/sets/72157601954673258/ > > > > ThereminWord: "theremin emulation discussion on csound mailing list" > > http://www.thereminworld.com/forum.asp?cmd=p&T=3104&F=1 > > > > comments @ thumbuki.com > > http://www.thumbuki.com/20080116/big-briar-etherwave-waveforms.html > > > > > > Best, > > Jake > > ---- > > The Csound Blog > > http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog/ > > > > > > > > Jacob Joaquin wrote: > >> As it would have it, I started to dabble with recreating a theremin > >> waveform a few days ago. Haven't gotten too far because of time > >> restraints. I went ahead and created a graph of the output from the Big > >> Briar Etherwave with various settings. You can download it here: > >> > > > > > > Send bugs reports to this list. > To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" > Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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Pedro Ferreira wrote: > Cool video. Well, your wave actually sounds like a Theremin... so, I > see no reason to reject it as a valid hypothesis :). Great! Well, that's all I really wanted to hear...! Joe Send bugs reports to this list. To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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I just want to reiterate what Pedro said, because I do think your method does sounds very much like a theremin. I even posted a link to "Poor Little Robot" on my blog back in April, as I really love the tune: http://www.thumbuki.com/20070423/poor-little-robot.html So I hope you don't think I was trying to to disprove your theory, or anyone elses by posting waveforms that contradicted your claim.
I guess my interest in recreating that theremin sound is being able to emulate as many micro variables as possible, including that of different players. In the end, I want a theremin instr that I can call my own, with its own personality and nuances. This means I'm taking everything said in this thread very seriously. Best, Jake ---- The Csound Blog http://www.thumbuki.com/csound/blog/
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