How to motivate students starting with Csound
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How to motivate students starting with Csound
 
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Hello list!
We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with "selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound, but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of use all of us teaching Csound.
Mvh. Bernt Isak Wærstad |
RE: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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1.) Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years now Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of Csound IMHO. I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound, that was great and eye opening in 95/96 pp From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:[hidden email]] Hello list! We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with "selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound, but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of use all of us teaching Csound. --
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Re: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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My "selling point" is that head to head it often sounds better. And
there are plenty of free Csound instruments to scarf up. Regards, Mike On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pagano <[hidden email]> wrote: > 1.) Cecilia.---It gets my audio design students interested for years now > > Also FLT RT INSTRS like 2.) Improsculpt are crowning achievements of Csound > IMHO. > > I used to do a ton of Just Intonation particular systems with csound, that > was great and eye opening in 95/96 > > > > > > pp > > > > From: Bernt Isak Wærstad [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:31 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [Csnd] How to motivate students starting with Csound > > > > Hello list! > > > > We discussed motivating students starting with Csound a bit on the > conference and I would like to pick up that thread now since I'm starting > teaching Csound to new students in a couple of weeks. I addition to giving > them examples of different instruments and effects and playing pieces I > though I would give them sort of a list of "selling points" for using Csound > so I thought it might be a good idea to hear what you guys think. And with > "selling points" I don't necessarily think of what you love most of Csound, > but what you think would be the best way to "sell" Csound to a bunch of > somewhat skeptical students. The fact that it's open source and free is > great, but might not matter to much to a guy who doesn't even have a > remotely idea of what Csound is capable of. Hopefully this list could be of > use all of us teaching Csound. > > > > > > -- > Mvh. > > > Bernt Isak Wærstad > > -- Michael Gogins Irreducible Productions http://www.michael-gogins.com Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
Re: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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In reply to this post by Pat Pagano
The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students
all the time is Csound doesn't suffer from the same limitations and restrictions that most commercial software synths and effects suffer from. It's easy to demonstrate. Simply open a DAW, pull down an effect and explore the limited possibilities it offers. Then build the effect in Csound and explore the unlimited possibilities it offers. For what it's worth I find the best way to keep students interested in Csound is to show them how to integrate it into other systems. In one of my undergraduate modules that deals with sound manipulation we've used csLADSPA to build effects for audacity. Although the students are writing Csound instruments, they get to use a familiar DAW interface to control them. I've started using Cabbage with a group of students just this year. We're only a few classes in but they love the fact they can use Csound in Live/Cubase/Fruity Loops etc. While it may be perfectly normal for users on this list to write entire pieces using nothing but Csound and a text editor, I don't think the majority of students find it normal at all, and why would they? They grew up using GUIs for everything. They thought I was mad when I first explained how I write music using nothing but Csound. They still think I'm mad. Rory. Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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Rory, I need Cabbage on OSX for a module I'm teaching in September! If it's not there all my teaching plans are ruined!! No pressure :-)
Best, Peiman On 9 February 2012 16:27, Rory Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote: The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students |
Re: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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I eat pressure and shit results! Didn't you know!?! I have sorted the
problem with the plugin ID conflicts. We're tipping ever closer to a first OSX release. You'll be getting your copy before anyone else! On 9 February 2012 16:33, peiman khosravi <[hidden email]> wrote: > Rory, I need Cabbage on OSX for a module I'm teaching in September! If it's > not there all my teaching plans are ruined!! No pressure :-) > > Best, > > Peiman > > On 9 February 2012 16:27, Rory Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students >> all the time is Csound doesn't suffer from the same limitations and >> restrictions that most commercial software synths and effects suffer >> from. It's easy to demonstrate. Simply open a DAW, pull down an effect >> and explore the limited possibilities it offers. Then build the effect >> in Csound and explore the unlimited possibilities it offers. >> >> For what it's worth I find the best way to keep students interested in >> Csound is to show them how to integrate it into other systems. In one >> of my undergraduate modules that deals with sound manipulation we've >> used csLADSPA to build effects for audacity. Although the students are >> writing Csound instruments, they get to use a familiar DAW interface >> to control them. I've started using Cabbage with a group of students >> just this year. We're only a few classes in but they love the fact >> they can use Csound in Live/Cubase/Fruity Loops etc. While it may be >> perfectly normal for users on this list to write entire pieces using >> nothing but Csound and a text editor, I don't think the majority of >> students find it normal at all, and why would they? They grew up using >> GUIs for everything. >> >> They thought I was mad when I first explained how I write music using >> nothing but Csound. >> >> They still think I'm mad. >> >> Rory. >> >> >> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker >> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here >> To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe >> csound" >> > Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
Re: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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Apologies, I thought I was sending that mail to Peiman off-list, if I
had known it was going to the whole list I would have censored the language! Rory. On 9 February 2012 16:37, Rory Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote: > I eat pressure and shit results! Didn't you know!?! I have sorted the > problem with the plugin ID conflicts. We're tipping ever closer to a > first OSX release. You'll be getting your copy before anyone else! > > > > On 9 February 2012 16:33, peiman khosravi <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Rory, I need Cabbage on OSX for a module I'm teaching in September! If it's >> not there all my teaching plans are ruined!! No pressure :-) >> >> Best, >> >> Peiman >> >> On 9 February 2012 16:27, Rory Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students >>> all the time is Csound doesn't suffer from the same limitations and >>> restrictions that most commercial software synths and effects suffer >>> from. It's easy to demonstrate. Simply open a DAW, pull down an effect >>> and explore the limited possibilities it offers. Then build the effect >>> in Csound and explore the unlimited possibilities it offers. >>> >>> For what it's worth I find the best way to keep students interested in >>> Csound is to show them how to integrate it into other systems. In one >>> of my undergraduate modules that deals with sound manipulation we've >>> used csLADSPA to build effects for audacity. Although the students are >>> writing Csound instruments, they get to use a familiar DAW interface >>> to control them. I've started using Cabbage with a group of students >>> just this year. We're only a few classes in but they love the fact >>> they can use Csound in Live/Cubase/Fruity Loops etc. While it may be >>> perfectly normal for users on this list to write entire pieces using >>> nothing but Csound and a text editor, I don't think the majority of >>> students find it normal at all, and why would they? They grew up using >>> GUIs for everything. >>> >>> They thought I was mad when I first explained how I write music using >>> nothing but Csound. >>> >>> They still think I'm mad. >>> >>> Rory. >>> >>> >>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker >>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 >>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here >>> To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe >>> csound" >>> >> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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In reply to this post by rory walsh
If they have Live/Max for Live, may I suggest Csound for Live? There are clear explanations of the opcodes, real-time playable and mappable instruments, as well as instantly viewed CSDs for "getting under the hood"... Best John On Feb 9, 2012 11:28 AM, "Rory Walsh" <[hidden email]> wrote:
The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students |
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In reply to this post by rory walsh
And what makes you think I'm OK with such foul language? :p
Looking forward to it! P On 9 February 2012 16:39, Rory Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote: Apologies, I thought I was sending that mail to Peiman off-list, if I |
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In reply to this post by rory walsh
Like. +1. All that. Can't wait, thanks for your hard work Rory! John On Feb 9, 2012 11:38 AM, "Rory Walsh" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I eat pressure and shit results! Didn't you know!?! I have sorted the |
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In reply to this post by Bernt Isak Wærstad
I used to teach a 1-semester course on Music and DSP to Computer
Science finalists, with a few mathematicians and the odd physicist. The motivation for them to learn Csound was largely that there was an assignment to write a short piece in Csound. These students were typically NOT musicians beyond the occasional "I am in a band", but most years there would be 1 or two really interested in music. But.... I tried to motivate by playing lots of examples in differing styles. I always got a good response from Tobias Enhus's "Electric Priest" which has elements of a beat, and interesting voice processing. I also played stuff from techno to very classical (such as Munro's Dry River -- not Csound), and of course some of my own to put them off, and frequent squeaking doors. Play lists may still be hanging about the 'net. The thrust of the course was really DSP and instrument modelling, but I used Csound for technical demos, phase vocoding, granular etc, including the FResponse program from the Audio Programming Book, the program being available to them as well. Tuning and psychoacoustics were similarly illustrated/ The results of the class can be found for 2001, 2009 and 2010 at http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/jpff/CM30142/CourseMusic08.html http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/jpff/CM30142/CourseMusic09.html http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/jpff/CM30142/CourseMusic10.html Some information on course is also there at http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/jpff/CM30142 ==John ffitch Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
Re: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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In reply to this post by peiman
That did occur to me after I sent the last email!
On 9 February 2012 16:47, peiman khosravi <[hidden email]> wrote: > And what makes you think I'm OK with such foul language? :p > > Looking forward to it! > > P > > > On 9 February 2012 16:39, Rory Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Apologies, I thought I was sending that mail to Peiman off-list, if I >> had known it was going to the whole list I would have censored the >> language! >> >> Rory. >> >> >> On 9 February 2012 16:37, Rory Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > I eat pressure and shit results! Didn't you know!?! I have sorted the >> > problem with the plugin ID conflicts. We're tipping ever closer to a >> > first OSX release. You'll be getting your copy before anyone else! >> > >> > >> > >> > On 9 February 2012 16:33, peiman khosravi <[hidden email]> >> > wrote: >> >> Rory, I need Cabbage on OSX for a module I'm teaching in September! If >> >> it's >> >> not there all my teaching plans are ruined!! No pressure :-) >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Peiman >> >> >> >> On 9 February 2012 16:27, Rory Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> The biggest selling point for me, and one that I throw at my students >> >>> all the time is Csound doesn't suffer from the same limitations and >> >>> restrictions that most commercial software synths and effects suffer >> >>> from. It's easy to demonstrate. Simply open a DAW, pull down an effect >> >>> and explore the limited possibilities it offers. Then build the effect >> >>> in Csound and explore the unlimited possibilities it offers. >> >>> >> >>> For what it's worth I find the best way to keep students interested in >> >>> Csound is to show them how to integrate it into other systems. In one >> >>> of my undergraduate modules that deals with sound manipulation we've >> >>> used csLADSPA to build effects for audacity. Although the students are >> >>> writing Csound instruments, they get to use a familiar DAW interface >> >>> to control them. I've started using Cabbage with a group of students >> >>> just this year. We're only a few classes in but they love the fact >> >>> they can use Csound in Live/Cubase/Fruity Loops etc. While it may be >> >>> perfectly normal for users on this list to write entire pieces using >> >>> nothing but Csound and a text editor, I don't think the majority of >> >>> students find it normal at all, and why would they? They grew up using >> >>> GUIs for everything. >> >>> >> >>> They thought I was mad when I first explained how I write music using >> >>> nothing but Csound. >> >>> >> >>> They still think I'm mad. >> >>> >> >>> Rory. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker >> >>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 >> >>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here >> >>> To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body >> >>> "unsubscribe >> >>> csound" >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker >> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 >> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here >> To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe >> csound" >> > Send bugs reports to the Sourceforge bug tracker https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=81968&atid=564599 Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here To unsubscribe, send email [hidden email] with body "unsubscribe csound" |
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In reply to this post by jpff
John, these results and the descriptions are very nice, and inspiring! Thank you much for sharing this. John C On Feb 9, 2012 11:49 AM, "jpff" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I used to teach a 1-semester course on Music and DSP to Computer |
Re: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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In reply to this post by Michael Gogins-2
the degree to which "you" actually use and love Csound is the "real" selling point.
___________________________________ Dr. Richard Boulanger, Ph.D. Professor of Electronic Production and Design Professional Writing and Music Technology Division Berklee College of Music 1140 Boylston Street Boston, MA 02215-3693 617-747-2485 (office) 774-488-9166 (cell) ____________________________________ ____________________________________ ____________________________________ On Feb 9, 2012, at 10:59 AM, Michael Gogins wrote:
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I personally use both and find max easier for certain things but I'm always surprised to see that students find Csound so much easier and immediate to 'get' compared with maxmsp. Maybe that's reflection on my teaching rather than the programmes themselves though.
Currently my approach is to give a bunch of samples to students to process and mix (to the point of losing their original identities) only in protools and using only the simple native tools/plug-ins. Once they aurally acquire a taste of how different sounds react to different (and basic) digital transformations (e.g. they can use a delay+feedback plug-in more imaginatively to create resonant filtering) Cecilia is introduced to show them more complex processes. Next year I'm hoping to introduce ready-made cabbage plug-ins in a wave-editor (instead of protools) to begin with and gradually encourage them to start modifying the CSDs to suit their specific needs. I think/hope this will wet their appetite to delve more deeply into Csound and start using it creatively. Best, Peiman On 9 February 2012 20:05, Dr. Richard Boulanger <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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In reply to this post by Bernt Isak Wærstad
It was a while ago, but I remember that the big lightbulb moment for me with Csound, was realising that ... in theory ... I could do ANYTHING!
Took a little while for that to sink in, but it's the difference between learning an interface, and learning a language.
Thorin On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:30 AM, Bernt Isak Wærstad <[hidden email]> wrote: Hello list! |
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In reply to this post by peiman
On 10/02/2012, at 8:09 AM, peiman khosravi wrote: I personally use both and find max easier for certain things but I'm always surprised to see that students find Csound so much easier and immediate to 'get' compared with maxmsp. Maybe that's reflection on my teaching rather than the programmes themselves though.In my experience, those who are primarily visual thinkers find the GUI/spatial layout approach of Max/PD easier that CSound (and SC). Not always true, but this applies to Art-school sound classees. Many composers who write scores find the code approach easier. (same caveat). Individuals have different mixtures of these perceptual biasses. Personally I can't think beyond a certain 'depth' with the visual/black-bo approach, whereas I can dream code - and many of my students report likewise. And then there is the thorny issue of the sound of the thing. I'm biassed but I recon the sound of Max/PD is 'dirtier' than CS and SC. I've never bothered to empirically test this prejudice. Life's too short... David Currently my approach is to give a bunch of samples to students to process and mix (to the point of losing their original identities) only in protools and using only the simple native tools/plug-ins. Once they aurally acquire a taste of how different sounds react to different (and basic) digital transformations (e.g. they can use a delay+feedback plug-in more imaginatively to create resonant filtering) Cecilia is introduced to show them more complex processes. Next year I'm hoping to introduce ready-made cabbage plug-ins in a wave-editor (instead of protools) to begin with and gradually encourage them to start modifying the CSDs to suit their specific needs. I think/hope this will wet their appetite to delve more deeply into Csound and start using it creatively. _____________________________________________ Dr David Worrall Experimental Composer, Polymedia Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) IT Projects, Music Council of Australia |
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I've tested fft in max and it definitely sound bad. And that's not even in comparison with csound. I wonder if max6 has improved in this area. Haven't upgraded yet.
P On 10 February 2012 06:02, DavidW <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by DavidW
Regardless of the sound (and cost) of Max/Max for Live, it was really helpful for me as a student of Csound to use these as a way to instantly control Csound and make GUIs that bring the beautiful sound of Csound into the paradigm of the DAW and live MIDI performance that I began with as a younger user of music technology. John On Feb 10, 2012 2:22 AM, "DavidW" <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: How to motivate students starting with Csound
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Whoa, good response! A lot of nice inputs here!
As I mentioned I'm already planning on showing them inspiring examples - both pieces (and thanks to John I now have a whole lot more to play - thanks John!) and demonstration of instruments and different "patching" solutions (Hadron, Csound for Live, Cabbage, blue, python with csound, csound~ etc.). I agree with what several of you are stating that combining Csound with familiar GUI is a nice way to ease the pain for those who never seen written code in their lives. Sigurd Saue, who works here at NTNU, has a "CsoundPlugin" which is sort of a Cabbage lite. The nice thing about this plugin is that is a bit easier to get started with even though is very limited compared to Cabbage. It has a automatic GUI generator so it's just for the students to add chn channels in their csd's and voila! - GUI controls pop up. I would of course encourage them to go on to Cabbage if they want more customization and GUI control, but I think the whole Cabbage package could be a bit much to take in for someone who's already struggling with getting Csound to make a bip. Sigurd used this plugin teaching the same course last year and had a very good response from the students after introducing this plugin.
Anyways, what I was thinking of originally with this post was to have a short on concise list of arguments for using Csound so it would be possible to say in a short, precise and persuasive manner why students should bother with Csound (aside from the fact that they have to if the want to pass the exam :) And just to make it clear: I'm not meaning to measure it against other alternatives like Max/MSP (we teach Max too in the same course), but it would be appropriate to list what you can't do with commercial/traditional DAWs and plugins. I guess it's more about "why bother with programming when there's so many great synths and effects available?" - which language you choose is another discussion :)
I'll try to compile a list over the weekend based on the inputs from this thread and post it back here to get your opinions again. On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:45 PM, J Clements <[hidden email]> wrote:
Mvh. Bernt Isak Wærstad |
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