Csound Journal

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Csound Journal

Steven Yi
Hi All,

I met with Jim tonight and we were discussing the Csound Journal and
just wanted to remind everyone that we're still open for contributions
and will be planning for about September 1st for a publish date.  So
far we have two submitted articles and a couple more we've been
contacted about; we'd love to have more so if you have anything to
contribute please do send it along!

Thanks,
steven
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Re: Csound Journal

Michael Rempel
I am working on a document to give specific guidance in detail for the build
of CSound 5 on Windows.

Problem is I am having issues myself, and not getting much help.

I wrote a little piece in it to express some of my frustration. I hope the
ranting character of it is not taken as a personal afront. And I hope that
what I say in it can be aleviated, along with the future frustrations of
other new developers. My thanks also goes out to John and some others who
HAVE helped me get past a few hurdles on this path.

In the main however, sugestions like RTM are just a bit frustrating given
what is in the manual, which is very incomplete. It only tells what to
download, and nothing about if or how to build, configure, or install it.
Not to mention what parts are needed for what purposes (most of this is in
custom.py, but that fact isn't in the manual). John's article on the
architecture is nice too, but it is not an install and config guide either.
The article is below.

Michael Rempel
---------------------------

You may find as I have that you are mostly on your own when it comes to bugs
and difficulty with getting this process complete. It seems everyone has
their own particular ways of doing things that have been set and working for
some years. In my experience no one was interested in helping me get past
problems with anything more than simple suggestions that would occur to even
a junior programmer.

My great difficulty, and one most people who want to build this project  is
that the tools are new to me. I am mostly a Windows guy. Even the simplicity
of msys is new to me. Mind you with years of development for everything from
DSP's, micro controllers and robots to international commerce and US
national real estate, I have no problem with the skills to do the job. My
sincere hope has been to avoid the pain of re-discovering the well-trodden
paths that the developers have already laid out.

It seems that the ideals of open source code don?t quite match up with the
realities of the Csound developers. While they are happy to spend many hours
discussing problems users have: and my in-box is a testament to this fact.
Even simple directions about where to look for configuration information to
compile have met with un-answered emails. It seems that there is a certain
gauntlet that must be run, of pain and frustration to cope with this program
on your own, before you can join the priesthood that guards this digital
domain.

I fully appreciate that many a young whip of a programmer will give the team
grief with endless questioning, but my premise in all of this was that the
answers I found, or was given would be documented for all. It is not at all
reasonable for a young tart of a programmer to haul off and change a lot of
the code and expect John and the rest of the crew to kowtow to an upstart?s
vision. After all that is what versions are for.  Make your own CVS
repository with your vision in it. On the other hand, I believe it is out of
step with the spirit of the GPL to create a technical hurdle that requires
great effort for the average programmer to overcome.

All of THAT said, and it needs to be said that the challenges of writing
code for this application are huge. Much more so than for most other kinds
of software. Technical know how to even approach the basics of this digital
signal processing tool are the stuff of PhD Thesis?, still warm from the
printing presses.

I personally think most people will want to study the code and see it
working. They may take a small stab at doing something slightly differently
from the standards that Csound hands out. But according to my understanding
of the spirit of the GPL, that is completely ok, and ought to be respected.


-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Yi [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Csnd] Csound Journal


Hi All,

I met with Jim tonight and we were discussing the Csound Journal and
just wanted to remind everyone that we're still open for contributions
and will be planning for about September 1st for a publish date.  So
far we have two submitted articles and a couple more we've been
contacted about; we'd love to have more so if you have anything to
contribute please do send it along!

Thanks,
steven
--
Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]

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Re: Csound Journal

Istvan Varga
Michael Rempel wrote:

> I am working on a document to give specific guidance in detail for the build
> of CSound 5 on Windows.
>
> Problem is I am having issues myself, and not getting much help.

Did you try building without the JAVA wrappers, or without building
CsoundVST at all ? These components are generally the most problematic,
and you can most probably only get help from Michael Gogins, as not many
other people might actually build CsoundVST with JAVA wrappers on Windows.
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Re: Csound Journal

Victor Lazzarini
In reply to this post by Steven Yi
I have built csound5 on windows using MSVC; perhaps I can
pass on the details to you, if you are interested.

Victor

>
> I am working on a document to give specific guidance in
> detail for the build of CSound 5 on Windows.
>
> Problem is I am having issues myself, and not getting much
> help.
>
> I wrote a little piece in it to express some of my
> frustration. I hope the ranting character of it is not
> taken as a personal afront. And I hope that what I say in
> it can be aleviated, along with the future frustrations of
> other new developers. My thanks also goes out to John and
> some others who HAVE helped me get past a few hurdles on
> this path.
>
> In the main however, sugestions like RTM are just a bit
> frustrating given what is in the manual, which is very
> incomplete. It only tells what to download, and nothing
> about if or how to build, configure, or install it. Not to
> mention what parts are needed for what purposes (most of
> this is in custom.py, but that fact isn't in the manual).
> John's article on the architecture is nice too, but it is
> not an install and config guide either. The article is
> below.
>
> Michael Rempel
> ---------------------------
>
> You may find as I have that you are mostly on your own
> when it comes to bugs and difficulty with getting this
> process complete. It seems everyone has their own
> particular ways of doing things that have been set and
> working for some years. In my experience no one was
> interested in helping me get past problems with anything
> more than simple suggestions that would occur to even a
> junior programmer.
>
> My great difficulty, and one most people who want to build
> this project  is that the tools are new to me. I am mostly
> a Windows guy. Even the simplicity of msys is new to me.
> Mind you with years of development for everything from
> DSP's, micro controllers and robots to international
> commerce and US national real estate, I have no problem
> with the skills to do the job. My sincere hope has been to
> avoid the pain of re-discovering the well-trodden paths
> that the developers have already laid out.
>
> It seems that the ideals of open source code don’t quite
> match up with the realities of the Csound developers.
> While they are happy to spend many hours discussing
> problems users have: and my in-box is a testament to this
> fact. Even simple directions about where to look for
> configuration information to compile have met with
> un-answered emails. It seems that there is a certain
> gauntlet that must be run, of pain and frustration to cope
> with this program on your own, before you can join the
> priesthood that guards this digital domain.
>
> I fully appreciate that many a young whip of a programmer
> will give the team grief with endless questioning, but my
> premise in all of this was that the answers I found, or
> was given would be documented for all. It is not at all
> reasonable for a young tart of a programmer to haul off
> and change a lot of the code and expect John and the rest
> of the crew to kowtow to an upstart’s vision. After all
> that is what versions are for.  Make your own CVS
> repository with your vision in it. On the other hand, I
> believe it is out of step with the spirit of the GPL to
> create a technical hurdle that requires great effort for
> the average programmer to overcome.
>
> All of THAT said, and it needs to be said that the
> challenges of writing code for this application are huge.
> Much more so than for most other kinds of software.
> Technical know how to even approach the basics of this
> digital signal processing tool are the stuff of PhD
> Thesis’, still warm from the printing presses.
>
> I personally think most people will want to study the code
> and see it working. They may take a small stab at doing
> something slightly differently from the standards that
> Csound hands out. But according to my understanding of the
> spirit of the GPL, that is completely ok, and ought to be
> respected.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Yi [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:51 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Csnd] Csound Journal
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I met with Jim tonight and we were discussing the Csound
> Journal and just wanted to remind everyone that we're
> still open for contributions and will be planning for
> about September 1st for a publish date.  So far we have
> two submitted articles and a couple more we've been
> contacted about; we'd love to have more so if you have
> anything to contribute please do send it along!
>
> Thanks,
> steven
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> [hidden email]
>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> [hidden email]
--
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To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]
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Re: Csound Journal

Michael Rempel
I am very interested thank you.

I think my remaining issues have to do primarily with scons.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 7:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Csound Journal


I have built csound5 on windows using MSVC; perhaps I can
pass on the details to you, if you are interested.

Victor

>
> I am working on a document to give specific guidance in
> detail for the build of CSound 5 on Windows.
>
> Problem is I am having issues myself, and not getting much
> help.
>
> I wrote a little piece in it to express some of my
> frustration. I hope the ranting character of it is not
> taken as a personal afront. And I hope that what I say in
> it can be aleviated, along with the future frustrations of
> other new developers. My thanks also goes out to John and
> some others who HAVE helped me get past a few hurdles on
> this path.
>
> In the main however, sugestions like RTM are just a bit
> frustrating given what is in the manual, which is very
> incomplete. It only tells what to download, and nothing
> about if or how to build, configure, or install it. Not to
> mention what parts are needed for what purposes (most of
> this is in custom.py, but that fact isn't in the manual).
> John's article on the architecture is nice too, but it is
> not an install and config guide either. The article is
> below.
>
> Michael Rempel
> ---------------------------
>
> You may find as I have that you are mostly on your own
> when it comes to bugs and difficulty with getting this
> process complete. It seems everyone has their own
> particular ways of doing things that have been set and
> working for some years. In my experience no one was
> interested in helping me get past problems with anything
> more than simple suggestions that would occur to even a
> junior programmer.
>
> My great difficulty, and one most people who want to build
> this project  is that the tools are new to me. I am mostly
> a Windows guy. Even the simplicity of msys is new to me.
> Mind you with years of development for everything from
> DSP's, micro controllers and robots to international
> commerce and US national real estate, I have no problem
> with the skills to do the job. My sincere hope has been to
> avoid the pain of re-discovering the well-trodden paths
> that the developers have already laid out.
>
> It seems that the ideals of open source code don?t quite
> match up with the realities of the Csound developers.
> While they are happy to spend many hours discussing
> problems users have: and my in-box is a testament to this
> fact. Even simple directions about where to look for
> configuration information to compile have met with
> un-answered emails. It seems that there is a certain
> gauntlet that must be run, of pain and frustration to cope
> with this program on your own, before you can join the
> priesthood that guards this digital domain.
>
> I fully appreciate that many a young whip of a programmer
> will give the team grief with endless questioning, but my
> premise in all of this was that the answers I found, or
> was given would be documented for all. It is not at all
> reasonable for a young tart of a programmer to haul off
> and change a lot of the code and expect John and the rest
> of the crew to kowtow to an upstart?s vision. After all
> that is what versions are for.  Make your own CVS
> repository with your vision in it. On the other hand, I
> believe it is out of step with the spirit of the GPL to
> create a technical hurdle that requires great effort for
> the average programmer to overcome.
>
> All of THAT said, and it needs to be said that the
> challenges of writing code for this application are huge.
> Much more so than for most other kinds of software.
> Technical know how to even approach the basics of this
> digital signal processing tool are the stuff of PhD
> Thesis?, still warm from the printing presses.
>
> I personally think most people will want to study the code
> and see it working. They may take a small stab at doing
> something slightly differently from the standards that
> Csound hands out. But according to my understanding of the
> spirit of the GPL, that is completely ok, and ought to be
> respected.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Yi [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:51 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Csnd] Csound Journal
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I met with Jim tonight and we were discussing the Csound
> Journal and just wanted to remind everyone that we're
> still open for contributions and will be planning for
> about September 1st for a publish date.  So far we have
> two submitted articles and a couple more we've been
> contacted about; we'd love to have more so if you have
> anything to contribute please do send it along!
>
> Thanks,
> steven
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> [hidden email]
>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> [hidden email]
--
Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]

--
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Re: Csound Journal

Victor Lazzarini
In reply to this post by Steven Yi
OK. I'll try and gather all the details and will send you
the
info when I'm back at the office on Monday.

Victor

>
> I am very interested thank you.
>
> I think my remaining issues have to do primarily with
> scons.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Saturday, July 02,
> 2005 7:56 AM To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] Csound Journal
>
>
> I have built csound5 on windows using MSVC; perhaps I can
> pass on the details to you, if you are interested.
>
> Victor
>
> >
> > I am working on a document to give specific guidance in
> > detail for the build of CSound 5 on Windows.
> >
> > Problem is I am having issues myself, and not getting
> > much help.
> >
> > I wrote a little piece in it to express some of my
> > frustration. I hope the ranting character of it is not
> > taken as a personal afront. And I hope that what I say
> > in it can be aleviated, along with the future
> > frustrations of other new developers. My thanks also
> > goes out to John and some others who HAVE helped me get
> > past a few hurdles on this path.
> >
> > In the main however, sugestions like RTM are just a bit
> > frustrating given what is in the manual, which is very
> > incomplete. It only tells what to download, and nothing
> > about if or how to build, configure, or install it. Not
> > to mention what parts are needed for what purposes (most
> > of this is in custom.py, but that fact isn't in the
> > manual). John's article on the architecture is nice too,
> > but it is not an install and config guide either. The
> > article is below.
> >
> > Michael Rempel
> > ---------------------------
> >
> > You may find as I have that you are mostly on your own
> > when it comes to bugs and difficulty with getting this
> > process complete. It seems everyone has their own
> > particular ways of doing things that have been set and
> > working for some years. In my experience no one was
> > interested in helping me get past problems with anything
> > more than simple suggestions that would occur to even a
> > junior programmer.
> >
> > My great difficulty, and one most people who want to
> > build this project  is that the tools are new to me. I
> > am mostly a Windows guy. Even the simplicity of msys is
> > new to me. Mind you with years of development for
> > everything from DSP's, micro controllers and robots to
> > international commerce and US national real estate, I
> > have no problem with the skills to do the job. My
> > sincere hope has been to avoid the pain of
> > re-discovering the well-trodden paths that the
> developers have already laid out. >
> > It seems that the ideals of open source code don’t
quite

> > match up with the realities of the Csound developers.
> > While they are happy to spend many hours discussing
> > problems users have: and my in-box is a testament to
> > this fact. Even simple directions about where to look
> > for configuration information to compile have met with
> > un-answered emails. It seems that there is a certain
> > gauntlet that must be run, of pain and frustration to
> > cope with this program on your own, before you can join
> > the priesthood that guards this digital domain.
> >
> > I fully appreciate that many a young whip of a
> > programmer will give the team grief with endless
> > questioning, but my premise in all of this was that the
> > answers I found, or was given would be documented for
> > all. It is not at all reasonable for a young tart of a
> > programmer to haul off and change a lot of the code and
> > expect John and the rest of the crew to kowtow to an
> > upstart’s vision. After all that is what versions are
> > for.  Make your own CVS repository with your vision in
> > it. On the other hand, I believe it is out of step with
> > the spirit of the GPL to create a technical hurdle that
> > requires great effort for the average programmer to
> overcome. >
> > All of THAT said, and it needs to be said that the
> > challenges of writing code for this application are
> > huge. Much more so than for most other kinds of
> > software. Technical know how to even approach the basics
> > of this digital signal processing tool are the stuff of
> > PhD Thesis’, still warm from the printing presses.
> >
> > I personally think most people will want to study the
> > code and see it working. They may take a small stab at
> > doing something slightly differently from the standards
> > that Csound hands out. But according to my understanding
> > of the spirit of the GPL, that is completely ok, and
> > ought to be respected.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steven Yi [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:51 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Csnd] Csound Journal
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I met with Jim tonight and we were discussing the Csound
> > Journal and just wanted to remind everyone that we're
> > still open for contributions and will be planning for
> > about September 1st for a publish date.  So far we have
> > two submitted articles and a couple more we've been
> > contacted about; we'd love to have more so if you have
> > anything to contribute please do send it along!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > steven
> > --
> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> > To unsubscribe, send email to
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > --
> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> > To unsubscribe, send email to
> > [hidden email]
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> [hidden email]
>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> [hidden email]
--
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Re: Csound Journal

Michael Rempel
Thank you very much.

Micahel

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 12:45 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Csound Journal


OK. I'll try and gather all the details and will send you
the
info when I'm back at the office on Monday.

Victor

>
> I am very interested thank you.
>
> I think my remaining issues have to do primarily with
> scons.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Saturday, July 02,
> 2005 7:56 AM To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Csnd] Csound Journal
>
>
> I have built csound5 on windows using MSVC; perhaps I can
> pass on the details to you, if you are interested.
>
> Victor
>
> >
> > I am working on a document to give specific guidance in
> > detail for the build of CSound 5 on Windows.
> >
> > Problem is I am having issues myself, and not getting
> > much help.
> >
> > I wrote a little piece in it to express some of my
> > frustration. I hope the ranting character of it is not
> > taken as a personal afront. And I hope that what I say
> > in it can be aleviated, along with the future
> > frustrations of other new developers. My thanks also
> > goes out to John and some others who HAVE helped me get
> > past a few hurdles on this path.
> >
> > In the main however, sugestions like RTM are just a bit
> > frustrating given what is in the manual, which is very
> > incomplete. It only tells what to download, and nothing
> > about if or how to build, configure, or install it. Not
> > to mention what parts are needed for what purposes (most
> > of this is in custom.py, but that fact isn't in the
> > manual). John's article on the architecture is nice too,
> > but it is not an install and config guide either. The
> > article is below.
> >
> > Michael Rempel
> > ---------------------------
> >
> > You may find as I have that you are mostly on your own
> > when it comes to bugs and difficulty with getting this
> > process complete. It seems everyone has their own
> > particular ways of doing things that have been set and
> > working for some years. In my experience no one was
> > interested in helping me get past problems with anything
> > more than simple suggestions that would occur to even a
> > junior programmer.
> >
> > My great difficulty, and one most people who want to
> > build this project  is that the tools are new to me. I
> > am mostly a Windows guy. Even the simplicity of msys is
> > new to me. Mind you with years of development for
> > everything from DSP's, micro controllers and robots to
> > international commerce and US national real estate, I
> > have no problem with the skills to do the job. My
> > sincere hope has been to avoid the pain of
> > re-discovering the well-trodden paths that the
> developers have already laid out. >
> > It seems that the ideals of open source code don?t
quite

> > match up with the realities of the Csound developers.
> > While they are happy to spend many hours discussing
> > problems users have: and my in-box is a testament to
> > this fact. Even simple directions about where to look
> > for configuration information to compile have met with
> > un-answered emails. It seems that there is a certain
> > gauntlet that must be run, of pain and frustration to
> > cope with this program on your own, before you can join
> > the priesthood that guards this digital domain.
> >
> > I fully appreciate that many a young whip of a
> > programmer will give the team grief with endless
> > questioning, but my premise in all of this was that the
> > answers I found, or was given would be documented for
> > all. It is not at all reasonable for a young tart of a
> > programmer to haul off and change a lot of the code and
> > expect John and the rest of the crew to kowtow to an
> > upstart?s vision. After all that is what versions are
> > for.  Make your own CVS repository with your vision in
> > it. On the other hand, I believe it is out of step with
> > the spirit of the GPL to create a technical hurdle that
> > requires great effort for the average programmer to
> overcome. >
> > All of THAT said, and it needs to be said that the
> > challenges of writing code for this application are
> > huge. Much more so than for most other kinds of
> > software. Technical know how to even approach the basics
> > of this digital signal processing tool are the stuff of
> > PhD Thesis?, still warm from the printing presses.
> >
> > I personally think most people will want to study the
> > code and see it working. They may take a small stab at
> > doing something slightly differently from the standards
> > that Csound hands out. But according to my understanding
> > of the spirit of the GPL, that is completely ok, and
> > ought to be respected.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steven Yi [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:51 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Csnd] Csound Journal
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I met with Jim tonight and we were discussing the Csound
> > Journal and just wanted to remind everyone that we're
> > still open for contributions and will be planning for
> > about September 1st for a publish date.  So far we have
> > two submitted articles and a couple more we've been
> > contacted about; we'd love to have more so if you have
> > anything to contribute please do send it along!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > steven
> > --
> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> > To unsubscribe, send email to
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > --
> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> > To unsubscribe, send email to
> > [hidden email]
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> [hidden email]
>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> [hidden email]
--
Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]

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Re: Csound Journal

Chuckk Hubbard
In reply to this post by Michael Rempel
I've plowed through just enough of that stuff to know I'll never want
to do it if I don't absolutely have to.  I'm also not sure I'd want to
guide anyone through what I have figured out, only because I'd rather
not think about it anymore.  Becoming comfortable with any part of it
always seems to involve having to work through something else totally
unfamiliar.  I'm going to stick to composing.
I imagine working with programming is pretty specialized, that there's
usually no reason for anyone who doesn't do it every day to ever have
to do it.  Any beginner's documentation there is is lost in the wash
of inscrutable expert text returned by any search engine.

-Chuckk

On 7/2/05, Michael Rempel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am working on a document to give specific guidance in detail for the build
> of CSound 5 on Windows.
>
> Problem is I am having issues myself, and not getting much help.
>
> I wrote a little piece in it to express some of my frustration. I hope the
> ranting character of it is not taken as a personal afront. And I hope that
> what I say in it can be aleviated, along with the future frustrations of
> other new developers. My thanks also goes out to John and some others who
> HAVE helped me get past a few hurdles on this path.
>
> In the main however, sugestions like RTM are just a bit frustrating given
> what is in the manual, which is very incomplete. It only tells what to
> download, and nothing about if or how to build, configure, or install it.
> Not to mention what parts are needed for what purposes (most of this is in
> custom.py, but that fact isn't in the manual). John's article on the
> architecture is nice too, but it is not an install and config guide either.
> The article is below.
>
> Michael Rempel
> ---------------------------
>
> You may find as I have that you are mostly on your own when it comes to bugs
> and difficulty with getting this process complete. It seems everyone has
> their own particular ways of doing things that have been set and working for
> some years. In my experience no one was interested in helping me get past
> problems with anything more than simple suggestions that would occur to even
> a junior programmer.
>
> My great difficulty, and one most people who want to build this project  is
> that the tools are new to me. I am mostly a Windows guy. Even the simplicity
> of msys is new to me. Mind you with years of development for everything from
> DSP's, micro controllers and robots to international commerce and US
> national real estate, I have no problem with the skills to do the job. My
> sincere hope has been to avoid the pain of re-discovering the well-trodden
> paths that the developers have already laid out.
>
> It seems that the ideals of open source code don't quite match up with the
> realities of the Csound developers. While they are happy to spend many hours
> discussing problems users have: and my in-box is a testament to this fact.
> Even simple directions about where to look for configuration information to
> compile have met with un-answered emails. It seems that there is a certain
> gauntlet that must be run, of pain and frustration to cope with this program
> on your own, before you can join the priesthood that guards this digital
> domain.
>
> I fully appreciate that many a young whip of a programmer will give the team
> grief with endless questioning, but my premise in all of this was that the
> answers I found, or was given would be documented for all. It is not at all
> reasonable for a young tart of a programmer to haul off and change a lot of
> the code and expect John and the rest of the crew to kowtow to an upstart's
> vision. After all that is what versions are for.  Make your own CVS
> repository with your vision in it. On the other hand, I believe it is out of
> step with the spirit of the GPL to create a technical hurdle that requires
> great effort for the average programmer to overcome.
>
> All of THAT said, and it needs to be said that the challenges of writing
> code for this application are huge. Much more so than for most other kinds
> of software. Technical know how to even approach the basics of this digital
> signal processing tool are the stuff of PhD Thesis', still warm from the
> printing presses.
>
> I personally think most people will want to study the code and see it
> working. They may take a small stab at doing something slightly differently
> from the standards that Csound hands out. But according to my understanding
> of the spirit of the GPL, that is completely ok, and ought to be respected.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Yi [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:51 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Csnd] Csound Journal
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I met with Jim tonight and we were discussing the Csound Journal and
> just wanted to remind everyone that we're still open for contributions
> and will be planning for about September 1st for a publish date.  So
> far we have two submitted articles and a couple more we've been
> contacted about; we'd love to have more so if you have anything to
> contribute please do send it along!
>
> Thanks,
> steven
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]
>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]
>


--
"It is not when truth is dirty, but when it is shallow, that the lover
of knowledge is reluctant to step into its waters."
-Friedrich Nietzsche, "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"
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Re: Csound Journal

Michael Rempel
Hi Chuck

You hit the nail on the head with force. The thing is with most GPL stuff
out there, you can download a few packages, run a few scripts and have a
running version of the software. Then it is a matter of skill, determination
and good ideas that will determine if anything further comes of it. At that
point the 'inscrutable expert text' becomes vital, and long hours persuing
rabbits down to neverland are essential.

What gets me a little bit is that in my professional life I spend endless
hours documenting the path of least resistance for other programmers to
follow. My long hours of build and test are summarized into chewable bite
sized pieces for immediate consumption. I dont know that it is reasonable
for me to expect the same thing in open source code, but I definitely want
it anyway, reasonable or not. In fact I want it enough to be willing to
create it for others as I discover it for myself.

You are completely correct in suggesting that programming and composing are
no where near the same thing. Given the extensive opcodes available in
CSound there is little if any need for a composer to write one line of C.

In my particular case, I have the summer off, being unemployed. I am looking
for a gig, but not very hopeful since most of Canada goes on vacation for
the summer. At least anything that can be put off till winter is put off.

So I was thinking about taking a crack at the parser, or a native ASIO
driver that doesnt depend on Portaudio, since they cant seem to finish. I
have done lexical parsers before, and ASIO is my prefered interface. And I
want both input and output. I was also considering cross compiling for a
MIPS box to create a stand alone realtime version that I can hook into my
USB keyboard for gigging, but that might be a tall order.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuckk Hubbard [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 9:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Csound Journal


I've plowed through just enough of that stuff to know I'll never want
to do it if I don't absolutely have to.  I'm also not sure I'd want to
guide anyone through what I have figured out, only because I'd rather
not think about it anymore.  Becoming comfortable with any part of it
always seems to involve having to work through something else totally
unfamiliar.  I'm going to stick to composing.
I imagine working with programming is pretty specialized, that there's
usually no reason for anyone who doesn't do it every day to ever have
to do it.  Any beginner's documentation there is is lost in the wash
of inscrutable expert text returned by any search engine.

-Chuckk

On 7/2/05, Michael Rempel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am working on a document to give specific guidance in detail for the
build

> of CSound 5 on Windows.
>
> Problem is I am having issues myself, and not getting much help.
>
> I wrote a little piece in it to express some of my frustration. I hope the
> ranting character of it is not taken as a personal afront. And I hope that
> what I say in it can be aleviated, along with the future frustrations of
> other new developers. My thanks also goes out to John and some others who
> HAVE helped me get past a few hurdles on this path.
>
> In the main however, sugestions like RTM are just a bit frustrating given
> what is in the manual, which is very incomplete. It only tells what to
> download, and nothing about if or how to build, configure, or install it.
> Not to mention what parts are needed for what purposes (most of this is in
> custom.py, but that fact isn't in the manual). John's article on the
> architecture is nice too, but it is not an install and config guide
either.
> The article is below.
>
> Michael Rempel
> ---------------------------
>
> You may find as I have that you are mostly on your own when it comes to
bugs
> and difficulty with getting this process complete. It seems everyone has
> their own particular ways of doing things that have been set and working
for
> some years. In my experience no one was interested in helping me get past
> problems with anything more than simple suggestions that would occur to
even
> a junior programmer.
>
> My great difficulty, and one most people who want to build this project
is
> that the tools are new to me. I am mostly a Windows guy. Even the
simplicity
> of msys is new to me. Mind you with years of development for everything
from
> DSP's, micro controllers and robots to international commerce and US
> national real estate, I have no problem with the skills to do the job. My
> sincere hope has been to avoid the pain of re-discovering the well-trodden
> paths that the developers have already laid out.
>
> It seems that the ideals of open source code don't quite match up with the
> realities of the Csound developers. While they are happy to spend many
hours
> discussing problems users have: and my in-box is a testament to this fact.
> Even simple directions about where to look for configuration information
to
> compile have met with un-answered emails. It seems that there is a certain
> gauntlet that must be run, of pain and frustration to cope with this
program
> on your own, before you can join the priesthood that guards this digital
> domain.
>
> I fully appreciate that many a young whip of a programmer will give the
team
> grief with endless questioning, but my premise in all of this was that the
> answers I found, or was given would be documented for all. It is not at
all
> reasonable for a young tart of a programmer to haul off and change a lot
of
> the code and expect John and the rest of the crew to kowtow to an
upstart's
> vision. After all that is what versions are for.  Make your own CVS
> repository with your vision in it. On the other hand, I believe it is out
of
> step with the spirit of the GPL to create a technical hurdle that requires
> great effort for the average programmer to overcome.
>
> All of THAT said, and it needs to be said that the challenges of writing
> code for this application are huge. Much more so than for most other kinds
> of software. Technical know how to even approach the basics of this
digital
> signal processing tool are the stuff of PhD Thesis', still warm from the
> printing presses.
>
> I personally think most people will want to study the code and see it
> working. They may take a small stab at doing something slightly
differently
> from the standards that Csound hands out. But according to my
understanding
> of the spirit of the GPL, that is completely ok, and ought to be
respected.

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Yi [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:51 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Csnd] Csound Journal
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I met with Jim tonight and we were discussing the Csound Journal and
> just wanted to remind everyone that we're still open for contributions
> and will be planning for about September 1st for a publish date.  So
> far we have two submitted articles and a couple more we've been
> contacted about; we'd love to have more so if you have anything to
> contribute please do send it along!
>
> Thanks,
> steven
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]
>
> --
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]
>


--
"It is not when truth is dirty, but when it is shallow, that the lover
of knowledge is reluctant to step into its waters."
-Friedrich Nietzsche, "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"
--
Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]

--
Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email to [hidden email]