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[Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

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[Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Jeanette C.
Hey hey,
I need to do some partial table-reading with phase shifts and possible
direction changes. Since the table-read is only partial, I can't use the
wrap-around functionality of table3, but have to wrap the phasor signal
myself. But when reading backwards, I appear to get an overrun of some
sort. Here are the expressions:
kphasor = (kphs + (iphs_shift * iiter)) % 1
iiter is an index of the recursion, moving the phase shift along.
For the reading direction:
kdirected_phasor = abs(kphasor - kdirfac)
kdirfac is either 0 (forwards) or -1 (backwards).

Did I miss something obvious?

Thanks and best wishes,

Jeanette

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Oeyvind Brandtsegg-3
Hi,
perhaps the wrap opcode can be useful to you here?

2017-05-01 3:02 GMT-07:00 Jeanette C. <[hidden email]>:
Hey hey,
I need to do some partial table-reading with phase shifts and possible
direction changes. Since the table-read is only partial, I can't use the
wrap-around functionality of table3, but have to wrap the phasor signal
myself. But when reading backwards, I appear to get an overrun of some
sort. Here are the expressions:
kphasor = (kphs + (iphs_shift * iiter)) % 1
iiter is an index of the recursion, moving the phase shift along.
For the reading direction:
kdirected_phasor = abs(kphasor - kdirfac)
kdirfac is either 0 (forwards) or -1 (backwards).

Did I miss something obvious?

Thanks and best wishes,

Jeanette

--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Jeanette C.
May 1 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

> Hi,
> perhaps the wrap opcode can be useful to you here?
It takes few words to speak a great truth. I rpobably stumbled across
its name oodleplexes of times and never noticed it. That should tell me!
THANKS!

Best wishes,

Jeanette
...

--------
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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

forrest
Um, difference between that one and 'mirror'?

I expect that wrap would do something like this with a signal:

-----_------------------------
    _
  _
 _       __
_      _    _
---------------

Where 'mirror' would handle it like so:

-----_------------------------
    _  _     _
  _      __
 _                                 
_                          
---------------   which might be preferable, depending?

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:51 AM, Jeanette C. <[hidden email]> wrote:
May 1 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

Hi,
perhaps the wrap opcode can be useful to you here?
It takes few words to speak a great truth. I rpobably stumbled across
its name oodleplexes of times and never noticed it. That should tell me!
THANKS!

Best wishes,

Jeanette
...


--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Oeyvind Brandtsegg-3
In reply to this post by Jeanette C.
Yay, happens to me all the time too

2017-05-02 4:51 GMT-07:00 Jeanette C. <[hidden email]>:
May 1 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

Hi,
perhaps the wrap opcode can be useful to you here?
It takes few words to speak a great truth. I rpobably stumbled across
its name oodleplexes of times and never noticed it. That should tell me!
THANKS!

Best wishes,

Jeanette
...


--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Oeyvind Brandtsegg-3
In reply to this post by forrest
Indeed, that is it, Forrest. 
I do think wrap would be the most useful for generally case table reading, but of course mirror could also be useful.
 

2017-05-02 6:54 GMT-07:00 Forrest Curo <[hidden email]>:
Um, difference between that one and 'mirror'?

I expect that wrap would do something like this with a signal:

-----_------------------------
    _
  _
 _       __
_      _    _
---------------

Where 'mirror' would handle it like so:

-----_------------------------
    _  _     _
  _      __
 _                                 
_                          
---------------   which might be preferable, depending?

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:51 AM, Jeanette C. <[hidden email]> wrote:
May 1 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

Hi,
perhaps the wrap opcode can be useful to you here?
It takes few words to speak a great truth. I rpobably stumbled across
its name oodleplexes of times and never noticed it. That should tell me!
THANKS!

Best wishes,

Jeanette
...


--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

hlolli
I ask without knowing doesnt this produce the same effect
aSig = bla
aWarp = -aSig
?

2017-05-02 21:38 GMT+02:00 Oeyvind Brandtsegg <[hidden email]>:
Indeed, that is it, Forrest. 
I do think wrap would be the most useful for generally case table reading, but of course mirror could also be useful.
 

2017-05-02 6:54 GMT-07:00 Forrest Curo <[hidden email]>:
Um, difference between that one and 'mirror'?

I expect that wrap would do something like this with a signal:

-----_------------------------
    _
  _
 _       __
_      _    _
---------------

Where 'mirror' would handle it like so:

-----_------------------------
    _  _     _
  _      __
 _                                 
_                          
---------------   which might be preferable, depending?

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:51 AM, Jeanette C. <[hidden email]> wrote:
May 1 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

Hi,
perhaps the wrap opcode can be useful to you here?
It takes few words to speak a great truth. I rpobably stumbled across
its name oodleplexes of times and never noticed it. That should tell me!
THANKS!

Best wishes,

Jeanette
...


--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Oeyvind Brandtsegg-3
Ah (you're asking about wrap, yes?), it is not inversion, but wrapping, that is once the signal goes above a max threshold it will wrap around to the minimum threshold.  It is more like modulo, but with custom max and min thresholds

2017-05-02 15:14 GMT-07:00 Hlöðver Sigurðsson <[hidden email]>:
I ask without knowing doesnt this produce the same effect
aSig = bla
aWarp = -aSig
?

2017-05-02 21:38 GMT+02:00 Oeyvind Brandtsegg <[hidden email]>:
Indeed, that is it, Forrest. 
I do think wrap would be the most useful for generally case table reading, but of course mirror could also be useful.
 

2017-05-02 6:54 GMT-07:00 Forrest Curo <[hidden email]>:
Um, difference between that one and 'mirror'?

I expect that wrap would do something like this with a signal:

-----_------------------------
    _
  _
 _       __
_      _    _
---------------

Where 'mirror' would handle it like so:

-----_------------------------
    _  _     _
  _      __
 _                                 
_                          
---------------   which might be preferable, depending?

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:51 AM, Jeanette C. <[hidden email]> wrote:
May 1 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

Hi,
perhaps the wrap opcode can be useful to you here?
It takes few words to speak a great truth. I rpobably stumbled across
its name oodleplexes of times and never noticed it. That should tell me!
THANKS!

Best wishes,

Jeanette
...


--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

hlolli
ah ok, just curiousity popping in, thanks.

2017-05-03 0:20 GMT+02:00 Oeyvind Brandtsegg <[hidden email]>:
Ah (you're asking about wrap, yes?), it is not inversion, but wrapping, that is once the signal goes above a max threshold it will wrap around to the minimum threshold.  It is more like modulo, but with custom max and min thresholds

2017-05-02 15:14 GMT-07:00 Hlöðver Sigurðsson <[hidden email]>:
I ask without knowing doesnt this produce the same effect
aSig = bla
aWarp = -aSig
?

2017-05-02 21:38 GMT+02:00 Oeyvind Brandtsegg <[hidden email]>:
Indeed, that is it, Forrest. 
I do think wrap would be the most useful for generally case table reading, but of course mirror could also be useful.
 

2017-05-02 6:54 GMT-07:00 Forrest Curo <[hidden email]>:
Um, difference between that one and 'mirror'?

I expect that wrap would do something like this with a signal:

-----_------------------------
    _
  _
 _       __
_      _    _
---------------

Where 'mirror' would handle it like so:

-----_------------------------
    _  _     _
  _      __
 _                                 
_                          
---------------   which might be preferable, depending?

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:51 AM, Jeanette C. <[hidden email]> wrote:
May 1 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

Hi,
perhaps the wrap opcode can be useful to you here?
It takes few words to speak a great truth. I rpobably stumbled across
its name oodleplexes of times and never noticed it. That should tell me!
THANKS!

Best wishes,

Jeanette
...


--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

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https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Jeanette C.
In reply to this post by Jeanette C.
Hi again,
I still have problems with my phasors. I'm still working on Risset glissandi.
Everything works fine if the frequency rises, but when the frequency is
falling, something goes wrong with my phasor(s). The code is here:
http://juliencoder.de/risset_filter.zip
The relevant file is m_risset_int.udo and there probably the line which
defines kphasor.

I took a look at an ealier experiment, written in one Csound instrument using
simple oscil opcodes. To properly change the direction, I only used a negative
frequency value to modulate frequency and amplitude. As far as I'm aware, I'm
doing nothing different here. Still, the high note enters at an amplitude >0.

I'd be grateful for a pointer to my obvious mistake.

Best wishes,

Jeanette

--------
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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Oeyvind Brandtsegg-3
In m_risset_int.udo,
replace
kphasor wrap ((kphs * kdirfac) + (iphs_shift * iiter)), 0, 1
kfm table3 kphasor*(ioctave/10), irise, 1, 0, 0
with
kphasor wrap (kphs  + (iphs_shift * iiter)), 0, 1
kfm table3 kphasor*kdirfac*(ioctave/10), irise, 1, 0, 1

There are two things, one is that the windowing function should still progress "forwards" even though the frequency trajectory is reversed, the other that I enabled wrapping in the kfm oscillator.

2017-05-03 11:06 GMT-07:00 Jeanette C. <[hidden email]>:
Hi again,
I still have problems with my phasors. I'm still working on Risset glissandi. Everything works fine if the frequency rises, but when the frequency is falling, something goes wrong with my phasor(s). The code is here:
http://juliencoder.de/risset_filter.zip
The relevant file is m_risset_int.udo and there probably the line which defines kphasor.

I took a look at an ealier experiment, written in one Csound instrument using simple oscil opcodes. To properly change the direction, I only used a negative frequency value to modulate frequency and amplitude. As far as I'm aware, I'm doing nothing different here. Still, the high note enters at an amplitude >0.

I'd be grateful for a pointer to my obvious mistake.

Best wishes,

Jeanette


--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Jeanette C.
May 3 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

> In m_risset_int.udo,
> replace
> kphasor wrap ((kphs * kdirfac) + (iphs_shift * iiter)), 0, 1
> kfm table3 kphasor*(ioctave/10), irise, 1, 0, 0
> with
> kphasor wrap (kphs  + (iphs_shift * iiter)), 0, 1
> kfm table3 kphasor*kdirfac*(ioctave/10), irise, 1, 0, 1
Hey hey Oeyvind,
thank you for that. I amended it slightly, I removed the wraparound
parameter from the table3 opcode to create kfm and instead created a
second phasor signal from the first with:
kfphasor wrap (kphasor *kdirfac)
That way the frequencies stay where they should be. Otherwise the
example with three octaves sounds very surprising. :)

I also found the error, that probably beat me all along: the parameter
to the wndow function. I set it to 1.8, which sounded good in my trials,
but caused the small peak of the high frequencies, when going down
somehow.

Thanks again, now I can finish and upload. :)


Best wishes,

Jeanette
...

--------
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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Partev Barr Sarkissian
In reply to this post by Jeanette C.
Some window functions have what could be described as
a horn at each end of the window function. I forget
which kind of window.

A friend of mine was using a window function on a
continuous data stream. The horn peaks were somehow
related to overlap between the previous window L-1 and
the next window L+1. Left him with horns on either end.

Not sure if or how it relates here, but if it's helpful,...  
 

-PBS

===========================================


--- [hidden email] wrote:

From:         "Jeanette C." <[hidden email]>
To:           [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?
Date:         Thu, 4 May 2017 13:35:31 +0200

May 3 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

> In m_risset_int.udo,
> replace
> kphasor wrap ((kphs * kdirfac) + (iphs_shift * iiter)), 0, 1
> kfm table3 kphasor*(ioctave/10), irise, 1, 0, 0
> with
> kphasor wrap (kphs  + (iphs_shift * iiter)), 0, 1
> kfm table3 kphasor*kdirfac*(ioctave/10), irise, 1, 0, 1
Hey hey Oeyvind,
thank you for that. I amended it slightly, I removed the wraparound
parameter from the table3 opcode to create kfm and instead created a
second phasor signal from the first with:
kfphasor wrap (kphasor *kdirfac)
That way the frequencies stay where they should be. Otherwise the
example with three octaves sounds very surprising. :)

I also found the error, that probably beat me all along: the parameter
to the wndow function. I set it to 1.8, which sounded good in my trials,
but caused the small peak of the high frequencies, when going down
somehow.

Thanks again, now I can finish and upload. :)


Best wishes,

Jeanette
...

--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Jeanette C.
May 11 2017, Partev Barr Sarkissian has written:

> Some window functions have what could be described as
> a horn at each end of the window function.
...
Hi,
I think this might exactly be what happened, due to the wrong optional
parameter to the Gaussian window function. I should have researched what
this parameter does, before experimenting wildly.

Best wishes,

Jeanette

--------
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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Partev Barr Sarkissian
In reply to this post by Jeanette C.
Hmmm,...
phasors, filters, 1.8,...

Try this, change the 1.8 to 0.8 or 0.9,
keep any poles and zeros within the "unit circle".
Something I've been reading lately in Julius Smith's
books.

Or, try running the results thru an Allpass Filter.
I forget what the Csound opcode for that is.

Maybe one of those or both will smooth it out.

With speaker crossover networks, one gets notch
distortion where the cut-off frequencies overlap. This
horn thing between consecutive windows seems to be like
that, but with inverse notch (or horns) in digital domain.
Not sure if that makes any sense.



Luck,
-PBS


===================================================


From:   "Jeanette C." <[hidden email]>
Reply-To:   A discussion list for users of Csound <[hidden email]>
To:   [hidden email]
Subject:   Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?
Date:   Thu 05/11/17 03:55 AM
 

May 11 2017, Partev Barr Sarkissian has written:

> Some window functions have what could be described as
> a horn at each end of the window function.
...
Hi,
I think this might exactly be what happened, due to the wrong optional
parameter to the Gaussian window function. I should have researched what
this parameter does, before experimenting wildly.

Best wishes,

Jeanette

--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
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==========================================================

--- [hidden email] wrote:

From:         Partev Barr Sarkissian <[hidden email]>
To:           [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?
Date:         Wed, 10 May 2017 21:26:34 -0700

Some window functions have what could be described as
a horn at each end of the window function. I forget
which kind of window.

A friend of mine was using a window function on a
continuous data stream. The horn peaks were somehow
related to overlap between the previous window L-1 and
the next window L+1. Left him with horns on either end.

Not sure if or how it relates here, but if it's helpful,...  
 

-PBS

===========================================


--- [hidden email] wrote:

From:         "Jeanette C." <[hidden email]>
To:           [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?
Date:         Thu, 4 May 2017 13:35:31 +0200

May 3 2017, Oeyvind Brandtsegg has written:

> In m_risset_int.udo,
> replace
> kphasor wrap ((kphs * kdirfac) + (iphs_shift * iiter)), 0, 1
> kfm table3 kphasor*(ioctave/10), irise, 1, 0, 0
> with
> kphasor wrap (kphs  + (iphs_shift * iiter)), 0, 1
> kfm table3 kphasor*kdirfac*(ioctave/10), irise, 1, 0, 1
Hey hey Oeyvind,
thank you for that. I amended it slightly, I removed the wraparound
parameter from the table3 opcode to create kfm and instead created a
second phasor signal from the first with:
kfphasor wrap (kphasor *kdirfac)
That way the frequencies stay where they should be. Otherwise the
example with three octaves sounds very surprising. :)

I also found the error, that probably beat me all along: the parameter
to the wndow function. I set it to 1.8, which sounded good in my trials,
but caused the small peak of the high frequencies, when going down
somehow.

Thanks again, now I can finish and upload. :)


Best wishes,

Jeanette
...

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Jeanette C.
Hi Partev,
thanks for your continued dedication to the problem. Maybe, I expressed myself
a little badly, but the whole problem is solved. I released the UDO a few days
ago.
http://juliencoder.de/sound/m_risset_filter-0.5.zip
As you can see in the demo CSD, a option of 1.0 to the Gaussian window is just
perfect.

Thank you very much again.

Best wishes,

Jeanette

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Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?

Partev Barr Sarkissian
In reply to this post by Jeanette C.
Hello Jeanette,

Excellent. Keep up the good work.


Cheers,
-PBS


=================================================

--- [hidden email] wrote:

From:         "Jeanette C." <[hidden email]>
To:           [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Mathematics problem or Csound caveat?
Date:         Sat, 13 May 2017 08:32:08 +0200

Hi Partev,
thanks for your continued dedication to the problem. Maybe, I expressed myself
a little badly, but the whole problem is solved. I released the UDO a few days
ago.
http://juliencoder.de/sound/m_risset_filter-0.5.zip
As you can see in the demo CSD, a option of 1.0 to the Gaussian window is just
perfect.

Thank you very much again.

Best wishes,

Jeanette

--------
When you need someone, you just turn around and I will be there <3

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here




_____________________________________________________________
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
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