[Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

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[Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!

Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.

Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..

However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..

Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?

Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask

On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!

Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.

Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..

However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..

Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?

Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

Victor Lazzarini
For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>
> Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>
> Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>
> However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>
> Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality

Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected

On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>
> Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>
> Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>
> However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>
> Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

I'm syncing with instruments in pure data...I just need a way to calculate bpm..that's it

On 20 Apr 2017 19:08, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality

Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected

On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>
> Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>
> Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>
> However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>
> Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

Victor Lazzarini
In reply to this post by bubget
progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).

The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,

prate =  timescale / overlaps

e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
grain, proportionally.

Not sure if this helps.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>
> Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
> >
> > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
> >
> > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
> >
> > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
> >
> > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
> >
> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

Oeyvind Brandtsegg-3
In reply to this post by bubget
Just my 2c,
you should be able to make the exact same sound with partikkel as with syncgrain. If you want to look into it, I can probably help tuning the parameters. Then again, if syncgrain does the job it is all good too.

2017-04-20 10:08 GMT-07:00 T Lopez <[hidden email]>:

I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality

Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected

On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>
> Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>
> Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>
> However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>
> Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here



--
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

Victor, you are the best!

Cheers, I will look into that later

And Oeyvind...let's do it!

I'll send you one of my attempts to reproduce the smoothness I get in syncgrain..

I tried increasing maxgrains and using higher grainrates and duration(if I remember correctly?) and the sound was still a bit metallic for me....

Anyways, I'll send you both syncgrain and partikkel edits with a test audio file...plus I'll tell you the parameters that achieve the target sound in syncgrain.

On 20 Apr 2017 20:20, "Oeyvind Brandtsegg" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just my 2c,
you should be able to make the exact same sound with partikkel as with syncgrain. If you want to look into it, I can probably help tuning the parameters. Then again, if syncgrain does the job it is all good too.

2017-04-20 10:08 GMT-07:00 T Lopez <[hidden email]>:

I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality

Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected

On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>
> Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>
> Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>
> However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>
> Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here



--
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget
In reply to this post by Victor Lazzarini

Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..

How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks again in advance

Tarek

On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).

The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,

prate =  timescale / overlaps

e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
grain, proportionally.

Not sure if this helps.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>
> Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
> >
> > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
> >
> > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
> >
> > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
> >
> > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
> >
> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

Victor Lazzarini
Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..

How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks again in advance

Tarek

On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).

The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,

prate =  timescale / overlaps

e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
grain, proportionally.

Not sure if this helps.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>
> Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
> >
> > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
> >
> > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
> >
> > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
> >
> > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
> >
> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

Okok..cheers

On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..

How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks again in advance

Tarek

On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).

The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,

prate =  timescale / overlaps

e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
grain, proportionally.

Not sure if this helps.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>
> Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
> >
> > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
> >
> > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
> >
> > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
> >
> > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
> >
> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

Ok, I've tried it and it works..cheers..

One last question for now, how do both grain density and grain size random offset play into the equation?

Supposedly, density is a randomiser..however seems pretty linear to me

On 23 Apr 2017 20:06, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Okok..cheers

On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..

How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks again in advance

Tarek

On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).

The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,

prate =  timescale / overlaps

e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
grain, proportionally.

Not sure if this helps.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>
> Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
> >
> > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
> >
> > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
> >
> > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
> >
> > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
> >
> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Reply | Threaded
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|

Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

Density offset, in case I wasn't clear enough

On 23 Apr 2017 20:52, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, I've tried it and it works..cheers..

One last question for now, how do both grain density and grain size random offset play into the equation?

Supposedly, density is a randomiser..however seems pretty linear to me

On 23 Apr 2017 20:06, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Okok..cheers

On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..

How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks again in advance

Tarek

On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).

The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,

prate =  timescale / overlaps

e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
grain, proportionally.

Not sure if this helps.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>
> Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
> >
> > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
> >
> > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
> >
> > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
> >
> > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
> >
> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Reply | Threaded
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|

Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

Victor Lazzarini
Grains are produced synchronously (hence syncgrain) so the start time of each grain is determined directly by the freq/density value. If say, this is 100, there are grains starting exactly 1/100 secs apart.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 23 Apr 2017, at 16:04, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Density offset, in case I wasn't clear enough

On 23 Apr 2017 20:52, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, I've tried it and it works..cheers..

One last question for now, how do both grain density and grain size random offset play into the equation?

Supposedly, density is a randomiser..however seems pretty linear to me

On 23 Apr 2017 20:06, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Okok..cheers

On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..

How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks again in advance

Tarek

On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).

The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,

prate =  timescale / overlaps

e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
grain, proportionally.

Not sure if this helps.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>
> Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
> >
> > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
> >
> > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
> >
> > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
> >
> > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
> >
> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Reply | Threaded
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|

Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget

Thanks for the explanation! However, meant kfreqOS and grsizeOS specifically!

In order to accurately calculate the progress rate, I would need to know how these parameters affect kfreq and grsize..

I mean, do they add or multiply...?

On 23 Apr 2017 21:56, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Grains are produced synchronously (hence syncgrain) so the start time of each grain is determined directly by the freq/density value. If say, this is 100, there are grains starting exactly 1/100 secs apart.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 23 Apr 2017, at 16:04, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Density offset, in case I wasn't clear enough

On 23 Apr 2017 20:52, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, I've tried it and it works..cheers..

One last question for now, how do both grain density and grain size random offset play into the equation?

Supposedly, density is a randomiser..however seems pretty linear to me

On 23 Apr 2017 20:06, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Okok..cheers

On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..

How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks again in advance

Tarek

On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).

The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,

prate =  timescale / overlaps

e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
grain, proportionally.

Not sure if this helps.
========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>
> Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>
> On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
> ========================
> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
> Maynooth University,
> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
> Tel: 00 353 7086936
> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>
> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
> >
> > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
> >
> > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
> >
> > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
> >
> > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
> >
> > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
> >
> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>
> Csound mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
> Send bugs reports to
>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
Reply | Threaded
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

Victor Lazzarini
Not quite sure I understand the question: what do you mean by kfreqOS etc? The parameters in syncgrain
are kfreq and kgrsize, freq/density and grain duration respectively.

========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 24 Apr 2017, at 15:15, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the explanation! However, meant kfreqOS and grsizeOS specifically!
>
> In order to accurately calculate the progress rate, I would need to know how these parameters affect kfreq and grsize..
>
> I mean, do they add or multiply...?
>
> On 23 Apr 2017 21:56, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Grains are produced synchronously (hence syncgrain) so the start time of each grain is determined directly by the freq/density value. If say, this is 100, there are grains starting exactly 1/100 secs apart.
>
> Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
> Maynooth University
> Ireland
>
> On 23 Apr 2017, at 16:04, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Density offset, in case I wasn't clear enough
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 20:52, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ok, I've tried it and it works..cheers..
>>
>> One last question for now, how do both grain density and grain size random offset play into the equation?
>>
>> Supposedly, density is a randomiser..however seems pretty linear to me
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 20:06, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Okok..cheers
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
>> Maynooth University
>> Ireland
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..
>>>
>>> How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?
>>>
>>> Thanks again in advance
>>>
>>> Tarek
>>>
>>> On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
>>> by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).
>>>
>>> The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
>>> a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
>>> A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,
>>>
>>> prate =  timescale / overlaps
>>>
>>> e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
>>> For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
>>> grain, proportionally.
>>>
>>> Not sure if this helps.
>>> ========================
>>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> Maynooth University,
>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>>
>>> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>>> >
>>> > Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>>> >
>>> > On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
>>> > ========================
>>> > Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> > Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> > Maynooth University,
>>> > Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> > Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> > Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>> >
>>> > > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>>> > >
>>> > > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>>> > >
>>> > > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>>> > >
>>> > > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>>> > >
>>> > > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>>> > >
>>> > > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>>> > >
>>> > > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> >
>>> > Csound mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> > Send bugs reports to
>>> >         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

bubget
asigL     syncgrain    gkamp, kfreq+kfreqOS, kpitch, kgrsize+kgrsizeOS, kprate, giFileL, iwfn, iolaps    ; LEFT CHANNEL

    asigR     syncgrain    gkamp, kfreq+kfreqOS, kpitch, kgrsize+kgrsizeOS, kprate, giFileR, iwfn, iolaps    ; RIGHT CHANNEL

above is a copied and pasted segment...

I have also included the entire file....its a slight edit of the syncgrain example that is in the Iain Mcgurdy examples, however, kfreqOS and kgrsizeOS were already part of the code

On 24 April 2017 at 16:40, Victor Lazzarini <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not quite sure I understand the question: what do you mean by kfreqOS etc? The parameters in syncgrain
are kfreq and kgrsize, freq/density and grain duration respectively.

========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 24 Apr 2017, at 15:15, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the explanation! However, meant kfreqOS and grsizeOS specifically!
>
> In order to accurately calculate the progress rate, I would need to know how these parameters affect kfreq and grsize..
>
> I mean, do they add or multiply...?
>
> On 23 Apr 2017 21:56, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Grains are produced synchronously (hence syncgrain) so the start time of each grain is determined directly by the freq/density value. If say, this is 100, there are grains starting exactly 1/100 secs apart.
>
> Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
> Maynooth University
> Ireland
>
> On 23 Apr 2017, at 16:04, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Density offset, in case I wasn't clear enough
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 20:52, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ok, I've tried it and it works..cheers..
>>
>> One last question for now, how do both grain density and grain size random offset play into the equation?
>>
>> Supposedly, density is a randomiser..however seems pretty linear to me
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 20:06, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Okok..cheers
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
>> Maynooth University
>> Ireland
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..
>>>
>>> How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?
>>>
>>> Thanks again in advance
>>>
>>> Tarek
>>>
>>> On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
>>> by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).
>>>
>>> The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
>>> a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
>>> A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,
>>>
>>> prate =  timescale / overlaps
>>>
>>> e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
>>> For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
>>> grain, proportionally.
>>>
>>> Not sure if this helps.
>>> ========================
>>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> Maynooth University,
>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>>
>>> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>>> >
>>> > Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>>> >
>>> > On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
>>> > ========================
>>> > Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> > Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> > Maynooth University,
>>> > Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> > Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> > Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>> >
>>> > > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>>> > >
>>> > > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>>> > >
>>> > > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>>> > >
>>> > > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>>> > >
>>> > > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>>> > >
>>> > > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>>> > >
>>> > > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> >
>>> > Csound mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> > Send bugs reports to
>>> >         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
[hidden email]
https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

Victor Lazzarini
Well, the freq and grsize are the sum of the freq and OS. You have to ask Iain what he had in mind with this design. I'd guess that kfreq is the centre value and kfreqOS is a random deviation around it, creating an 
asynchronous effect. 

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 24 Apr 2017, at 16:46, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

asigL     syncgrain    gkamp, kfreq+kfreqOS, kpitch, kgrsize+kgrsizeOS, kprate, giFileL, iwfn, iolaps    ; LEFT CHANNEL

    asigR     syncgrain    gkamp, kfreq+kfreqOS, kpitch, kgrsize+kgrsizeOS, kprate, giFileR, iwfn, iolaps    ; RIGHT CHANNEL

above is a copied and pasted segment...

I have also included the entire file....its a slight edit of the syncgrain example that is in the Iain Mcgurdy examples, however, kfreqOS and kgrsizeOS were already part of the code

On 24 April 2017 at 16:40, Victor Lazzarini <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not quite sure I understand the question: what do you mean by kfreqOS etc? The parameters in syncgrain
are kfreq and kgrsize, freq/density and grain duration respectively.

========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 24 Apr 2017, at 15:15, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the explanation! However, meant kfreqOS and grsizeOS specifically!
>
> In order to accurately calculate the progress rate, I would need to know how these parameters affect kfreq and grsize..
>
> I mean, do they add or multiply...?
>
> On 23 Apr 2017 21:56, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Grains are produced synchronously (hence syncgrain) so the start time of each grain is determined directly by the freq/density value. If say, this is 100, there are grains starting exactly 1/100 secs apart.
>
> Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
> Maynooth University
> Ireland
>
> On 23 Apr 2017, at 16:04, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Density offset, in case I wasn't clear enough
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 20:52, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ok, I've tried it and it works..cheers..
>>
>> One last question for now, how do both grain density and grain size random offset play into the equation?
>>
>> Supposedly, density is a randomiser..however seems pretty linear to me
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 20:06, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Okok..cheers
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
>> Maynooth University
>> Ireland
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..
>>>
>>> How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?
>>>
>>> Thanks again in advance
>>>
>>> Tarek
>>>
>>> On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
>>> by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).
>>>
>>> The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
>>> a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
>>> A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,
>>>
>>> prate =  timescale / overlaps
>>>
>>> e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
>>> For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
>>> grain, proportionally.
>>>
>>> Not sure if this helps.
>>> ========================
>>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> Maynooth University,
>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>>
>>> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>>> >
>>> > Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>>> >
>>> > On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
>>> > ========================
>>> > Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> > Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> > Maynooth University,
>>> > Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> > Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> > Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>> >
>>> > > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>>> > >
>>> > > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>>> > >
>>> > > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>>> > >
>>> > > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>>> > >
>>> > > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>>> > >
>>> > > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>>> > >
>>> > > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> >
>>> > Csound mailing list
>>> > [hidden email]
>>> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> > Send bugs reports to
>>> >         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>
>>> Csound mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND
>>> Send bugs reports to
>>>         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

Csound mailing list
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Send bugs reports to
        https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here

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<syncgrainedit2.csd>
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Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?

Iain McCurdy

Indeed as Victor suggests these are additional mechanisms that are not part of the syncgrain opcode itself. Syncgrain, by default, produces synchonous granular synthesis (periodic identical grains) but modulating grain frequency and grain size rapidly can produce asynchronous granular synthesis and undermine the production of sidebands related to periodicity. 


Grain frequency is simply multiplied by a uniform bipolar random function, the amplitude of which is controlled by gkfreqOS:

kfreqOS  rand  gkfreqOS
kfreqOS  =     kfreqOS * kfreq


Grain size is multiplied to a gaussian random function, the amplitude of which is controlled by gksizeOS:

kgrsizeOS gauss gksizeOS
kgrsizeOS = kgrsizeOS * kgrsize 

I hope this answers your question.
Iain



From: A discussion list for users of Csound <[hidden email]> on behalf of Victor Lazzarini <[hidden email]>
Sent: 25 April 2017 09:13
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Csnd] Calculating BPM in Syncgrain?
 
Well, the freq and grsize are the sum of the freq and OS. You have to ask Iain what he had in mind with this design. I'd guess that kfreq is the centre value and kfreqOS is a random deviation around it, creating an 
asynchronous effect. 

Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
Maynooth University
Ireland

On 24 Apr 2017, at 16:46, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

asigL     syncgrain    gkamp, kfreq+kfreqOS, kpitch, kgrsize+kgrsizeOS, kprate, giFileL, iwfn, iolaps    ; LEFT CHANNEL

    asigR     syncgrain    gkamp, kfreq+kfreqOS, kpitch, kgrsize+kgrsizeOS, kprate, giFileR, iwfn, iolaps    ; RIGHT CHANNEL

above is a copied and pasted segment...

I have also included the entire file....its a slight edit of the syncgrain example that is in the Iain Mcgurdy examples, however, kfreqOS and kgrsizeOS were already part of the code

On 24 April 2017 at 16:40, Victor Lazzarini <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not quite sure I understand the question: what do you mean by kfreqOS etc? The parameters in syncgrain
are kfreq and kgrsize, freq/density and grain duration respectively.

========================
Prof. Victor Lazzarini
Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
Maynooth University,
Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
Tel: 00 353 7086936
Fax: 00 353 1 7086952

> On 24 Apr 2017, at 15:15, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the explanation! However, meant kfreqOS and grsizeOS specifically!
>
> In order to accurately calculate the progress rate, I would need to know how these parameters affect kfreq and grsize..
>
> I mean, do they add or multiply...?
>
> On 23 Apr 2017 21:56, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Grains are produced synchronously (hence syncgrain) so the start time of each grain is determined directly by the freq/density value. If say, this is 100, there are grains starting exactly 1/100 secs apart.
>
> Victor Lazzarini
> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
> Maynooth University
> Ireland
>
> On 23 Apr 2017, at 16:04, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Density offset, in case I wasn't clear enough
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 20:52, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ok, I've tried it and it works..cheers..
>>
>> One last question for now, how do both grain density and grain size random offset play into the equation?
>>
>> Supposedly, density is a randomiser..however seems pretty linear to me
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 20:06, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Okok..cheers
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017 19:59, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Grain size is duration in my notes. Grain frequency is grain density.
>>
>> Victor Lazzarini
>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy
>> Maynooth University
>> Ireland
>>
>> On 23 Apr 2017, at 14:56, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, so Victor..I was just about to test your equation when I realised that syncgrain does not(to my knowledge) use a grain duration parameter. Indeed it is grsize(grainsize) and kfreq(grain density as you mentioned) which are interacting with prate..
>>>
>>> How then would one go about calculating the overlaps then? Or am I missing something obvious?
>>>
>>> Thanks again in advance
>>>
>>> Tarek
>>>
>>> On 20 Apr 2017 19:28, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> progress rate, if I am guessing right what you are asking, is related to the timescale ratio. This is controlled
>>> by two things: the number of overlapped grains and the pointer advance rate (prate).
>>>
>>> The number of overlapped grains is grain duration (in secs) times density (in grains/sec). So
>>> a grain density of 20 gr/s with grains of 0.05 s has overlap of 1 in normal timescale playback.
>>> A density of 40 has 2 overlaps. So,
>>>
>>> prate =  timescale / overlaps
>>>
>>> e.g. with an overlap of 2, for normal playback, prate = 0.5 (ie. the position jumps ahead by 1/2 grain).
>>> For a 2x speed up, the position jumps by 1 whole grain. To slow down it will jump by less than 1/2
>>> grain, proportionally.
>>>
>>> Not sure if this helps.
>>> ========================
>>> Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> Maynooth University,
>>> Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>>
>>> > On 20 Apr 2017, at 18:08, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I have used partikkel quite a bit, while I like it..I prefer to do time-stretching in syncgrain, I prefer the sound quality
>>> >
>>> > Anyway, the point is, I would like to figure out how to calculate how the progress rate is affected
>>> >
>>> > On 20 Apr 2017 18:51, "Victor Lazzarini" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > For syncing etc I think partikkel is much more powerful. Have you looked at it?
>>> > ========================
>>> > Prof. Victor Lazzarini
>>> > Dean of Arts, Celtic Studies, and Philosophy,
>>> > Maynooth University,
>>> > Maynooth, Co Kildare, Ireland
>>> > Tel: 00 353 7086936
>>> > Fax: 00 353 1 7086952
>>> >
>>> > > On 20 Apr 2017, at 16:57, T Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > I would like to sync it with other projects/instruments...This is why I ask
>>> > >
>>> > > On 20 Apr 2017 17:55, "T Lopez" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > > Hi all, yet another syncgrain question!
>>> > >
>>> > > Maaaaybe Iain would know as he programmed it! Of course, if any one else has insight I would be more than grateful.
>>> > >
>>> > > Given that you know the bpm of the source file, normally, it would be easy to calaculate the bpm of the subsequent granulated output by multiplying the original bpm by the progress rate..
>>> > >
>>> > > However, as in syncgrain, progress rate is affected by both the grain size and grain density..
>>> > >
>>> > > Any ideas on how to calculate the result the resulting bpm/and or progress rate?
>>> > >
>>> > > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> >
>>> > Csound mailing list
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>>> >         https://github.com/csound/csound/issues
>>> > Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>> > Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>>>
>>> Csound mailing list
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>>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
>> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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> Csound mailing list [hidden email] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CSOUND Send bugs reports to https://github.com/csound/csound/issues Discussions of bugs and features can be posted here
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<syncgrainedit2.csd>
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