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Steven Yi

Build Types

Hi All,

I was thinking today that the SConstruct file should be redone to
allow for targets to build csound single or double as well as debug
and release targets, so four targets total. I would like to have them
set to be built in different directories so that their object files
don't mix and you could build any or all four without having to clean
any of them. Does this sound fine?

steven

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Michael Gogins

Re: Build Types

I have mixed feelings about your proposal.

One the one hand, I see no need for a float build, or for a release build. I've proved with double-blind tests that the double versions sounds different from the float version, and since double is more precise, that means double is musically superior to float. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.

And I've had no problem simply stripping the existing optimized debug build for release.

So, monkeying with the build system seems like a waste of time compared to contributing something new or improving the code.

On the other hand, I know other people feel differently, that some people want the extra speed of float, and I also think that the existing SConstruct is a maze that could be much improved. It would be nice if it were a lot simpler.

So go ahead, have fun, but if there are lots of changes and CsoundVST and other targets I have added don't build any more, I'll be very strongly tempted to roll back the changes.

Best regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Yi <[hidden email]>
Sent: Jul 26, 2005 5:00 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Cs-dev] Build Types

Hi All,

I was thinking today that the SConstruct file should be redone to
allow for targets to build csound single or double as well as debug
and release targets, so four targets total. I would like to have them
set to be built in different directories so that their object files
don't mix and you could build any or all four without having to clean
any of them. Does this sound fine?

steven

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Steven Yi

Re: Build Types

Well, for me, I occassionally like to have a debug build around for
profiling and when I do that now, I have to run a clean and whole new
build. Either that, or maintain a second CVS checkout directory that
only has debug builds, which is tedious I think.

As for the float/double issue, there's more to it than just quality of
sound. Having access to both 32 and 64 makes the most sense to me so
that you can run 32 while working for speed and 64 for final work.
Also, as far I remember, not all the utilities work for 64, and you
definitely can't mix and match analysis files between 32 and 64. If
user's don't have access to the source for their analysis but still
want to use the analysis file, not much to do but use the version they
originally used. I'd really like to be able to compile all four
versions (Debug and Release for 32 and 64) and have them available
without having to maintain 4 cvs checkout directories locally.

As for stripping the debug builds, how is that done?

steven

On 7/26/05, Michael Gogins <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have mixed feelings about your proposal.
>
> One the one hand, I see no need for a float build, or for a release build. I've proved with double-blind tests that the double versions sounds different from the float version, and since double is more precise, that means double is musically superior to float. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.
>
> And I've had no problem simply stripping the existing optimized debug build for release.
>
> So, monkeying with the build system seems like a waste of time compared to contributing something new or improving the code.
>
> On the other hand, I know other people feel differently, that some people want the extra speed of float, and I also think that the existing SConstruct is a maze that could be much improved. It would be nice if it were a lot simpler.
>
> So go ahead, have fun, but if there are lots of changes and CsoundVST and other targets I have added don't build any more, I'll be very strongly tempted to roll back the changes.
>
> Best regards,
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Yi <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Jul 26, 2005 5:00 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Cs-dev] Build Types
>
> Hi All,
>
> I was thinking today that the SConstruct file should be redone to
> allow for targets to build csound single or double as well as debug
> and release targets, so four targets total. I would like to have them
> set to be built in different directories so that their object files
> don't mix and you could build any or all four without having to clean
> any of them. Does this sound fine?
>
> steven
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies
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> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>
>
>
>
>
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Michael Gogins

Re: Build Types

In reply to this post by Steven Yi

On Linux or Unix:

strip csound
strip CsoundVST
strip [name your utility]
strip *.so

On MinGW/MSys/Windows it's easier since all files have suffixes:

strip *.exe
strip *.dll

I had forgotten that not all utilities work compiled as doubles. That is a problem. So they should all be got to work with doubles...

Best,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Yi <[hidden email]>
Sent: Jul 27, 2005 2:47 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Build Types

Well, for me, I occassionally like to have a debug build around for
profiling and when I do that now, I have to run a clean and whole new
build. Either that, or maintain a second CVS checkout directory that
only has debug builds, which is tedious I think.

As for the float/double issue, there's more to it than just quality of
sound. Having access to both 32 and 64 makes the most sense to me so
that you can run 32 while working for speed and 64 for final work.
Also, as far I remember, not all the utilities work for 64, and you
definitely can't mix and match analysis files between 32 and 64. If
user's don't have access to the source for their analysis but still
want to use the analysis file, not much to do but use the version they
originally used. I'd really like to be able to compile all four
versions (Debug and Release for 32 and 64) and have them available
without having to maintain 4 cvs checkout directories locally.

As for stripping the debug builds, how is that done?

steven

On 7/26/05, Michael Gogins <[hidden email]> wrote:

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Steven Yi

Re: Build Types

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the information regarding strip. If I understand correctly
though, using strip will improve speed but not as much as recompilning
with debugOff and optimizations set to O3?

steven

On 7/27/05, Michael Gogins <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Linux or Unix:
>
> strip csound
> strip CsoundVST
> strip [name your utility]
> strip *.so
>
> On MinGW/MSys/Windows it's easier since all files have suffixes:
>
> strip *.exe
> strip *.dll
>
> I had forgotten that not all utilities work compiled as doubles. That is a problem. So they should all be got to work with doubles...
>
> Best,
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Yi <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Jul 27, 2005 2:47 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Build Types
>
> Well, for me, I occassionally like to have a debug build around for
> profiling and when I do that now, I have to run a clean and whole new
> build. Either that, or maintain a second CVS checkout directory that
> only has debug builds, which is tedious I think.
>
> As for the float/double issue, there's more to it than just quality of
> sound. Having access to both 32 and 64 makes the most sense to me so
> that you can run 32 while working for speed and 64 for final work.
> Also, as far I remember, not all the utilities work for 64, and you
> definitely can't mix and match analysis files between 32 and 64. If
> user's don't have access to the source for their analysis but still
> want to use the analysis file, not much to do but use the version they
> originally used. I'd really like to be able to compile all four
> versions (Debug and Release for 32 and 64) and have them available
> without having to maintain 4 cvs checkout directories locally.
>
> As for stripping the debug builds, how is that done?
>
> steven
>
>
> On 7/26/05, Michael Gogins <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I have mixed feelings about your proposal.
> >
> > One the one hand, I see no need for a float build, or for a release build. I've proved with double-blind tests that the double versions sounds different from the float version, and since double is more precise, that means double is musically superior to float. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.
> >
> > And I've had no problem simply stripping the existing optimized debug build for release.
> >
> > So, monkeying with the build system seems like a waste of time compared to contributing something new or improving the code.
> >
> > On the other hand, I know other people feel differently, that some people want the extra speed of float, and I also think that the existing SConstruct is a maze that could be much improved. It would be nice if it were a lot simpler.
> >
> > So go ahead, have fun, but if there are lots of changes and CsoundVST and other targets I have added don't build any more, I'll be very strongly tempted to roll back the changes.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steven Yi <[hidden email]>
> > Sent: Jul 26, 2005 5:00 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Cs-dev] Build Types
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I was thinking today that the SConstruct file should be redone to
> > allow for targets to build csound single or double as well as debug
> > and release targets, so four targets total. I would like to have them
> > set to be built in different directories so that their object files
> > don't mix and you could build any or all four without having to clean
> > any of them. Does this sound fine?
> >
> > steven
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies
> > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles,
> > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to
> > speed, fast. <a href="http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idt77&alloc_id492&op=click">http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idt77&alloc_id492&op=click
> > _______________________________________________
> > Csound-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies
> > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles,
> > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to
> > speed, fast. <a href="http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idt77&alloc_id492&opclick">http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idt77&alloc_id492&opclick
> > _______________________________________________
> > Csound-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
> >
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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Istvan Varga

Re: Build Types

Steven Yi wrote:

> Thanks for the information regarding strip. If I understand correctly
> though, using strip will improve speed but not as much as recompilning
> with debugOff and optimizations set to O3?

Stripping does not really improve speed, but reduces the size of executables
(particularly plugins written in C++). Compiling with gcc3opt does result
in a speed-up, however, files built this way cannot be debugged, even if they
are not stripped. Also, if you do not use a CPU type for gcc3opt that uses
SSE (for single precision) or SSE2 (for double precision) instructions, then
adding useLrint=1 can improve performance; note that this option can be used
even for a debug build.

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Steven Yi

Re: Build Types

Ah, thanks Istvan! I was curious about when to use useLrint, I see
now that I likely won't be using it as the cpu's I use all use SSE and
up. Question for you: I know that when you do releases you put
together 32 and 64 bit versions. How have you gone about handling the
different builds? (Multiple clean/compiles, different CVS checkout
directories, other options?0

Thanks!
steven

On 7/27/05, Istvan Varga <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steven Yi wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the information regarding strip. If I understand correctly
> > though, using strip will improve speed but not as much as recompilning
> > with debugOff and optimizations set to O3?
>
> Stripping does not really improve speed, but reduces the size of executables
> (particularly plugins written in C++). Compiling with gcc3opt does result
> in a speed-up, however, files built this way cannot be debugged, even if they
> are not stripped. Also, if you do not use a CPU type for gcc3opt that uses
> SSE (for single precision) or SSE2 (for double precision) instructions, then
> adding useLrint=1 can improve performance; note that this option can be used
> even for a debug build.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference & EXPO September
> 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices
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> _______________________________________________
> Csound-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/csound-devel
>

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Michael Gogins

Re: Build Types

In reply to this post by Steven Yi

Strip will have only a minor impact on speed, and only because there will be less swapping since the binaries will be smaller. Strip has no effect on the compiled machine code, only on debugging information and symbol tables.

The difference between -02 and -03 is relatively small. Building with debugging on plus -O2, then stripping for release is almost standard practice on Linux and Unix. This is what I recommend. You could also build for -03 with debugging on, I think, but it might be harder to debug and some -03 features might not work.

Regards,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Yi <[hidden email]>
Sent: Jul 27, 2005 2:33 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Cs-dev] Build Types

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the information regarding strip. If I understand correctly
though, using strip will improve speed but not as much as recompilning
with debugOff and optimizations set to O3?

steven

On 7/27/05, Michael Gogins <[hidden email]> wrote:

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Istvan Varga

Re: Build Types

In reply to this post by Steven Yi

Steven Yi wrote:

> Ah, thanks Istvan! I was curious about when to use useLrint, I see
> now that I likely won't be using it as the cpu's I use all use SSE and
> up. Question for you: I know that when you do releases you put
> together 32 and 64 bit versions. How have you gone about handling the
> different builds? (Multiple clean/compiles, different CVS checkout
> directories, other options ?

Actually, I build the Win32 releases with make (using the Makefile-win32
in CVS). I cannot get scons to work with MinGW, gcc always exits with
"abnormal program termination".
I compile with single precision first, and copy the binaries to the
package directories (csound5/bin and csound5/lib). Then, after doing
a 'make clean', build the 64 bit version and then copy the resulting
exe and dll files to csound5/bin and csound5/lib64. The stand-alone
utilities are all compiled with double precision.

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Istvan Varga

Re: Build Types

In reply to this post by Michael Gogins

The gcc3opt flag also turns on -fomit-frame-pointer, -ffast-math, and -march with
the specified CPU type, in addition to -O3. -fomit-frame-pointer, while results
in some speed-up, makes debugging impossible.
On the other hand, for reliable debugging, I found that something like -g -gstabs
-O0 (that is, disabling optimizations completely) works best. gdb often behaves
in strange ways when debugging optimized binaries.

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Iain Duncan

Re: Build Types

In reply to this post by Michael Gogins

> On the other hand, I know other people feel differently, that some people want the extra speed of float, and I also think that the existing SConstruct is a maze that could be much improved. It would be nice if it were a lot simpler.

For what it's worth, I would like the option of a fast vs higher quality
build. For live use I max out csound on my AMD 64 3000+ and I have ksmps
at 128. I could easily max out a much faster machine. In a club no will
hear the difference between floats and doubles but they will hear the
difference in other areas, so I think the choice is a good thing. For
studio use I would rather render and use ksmps=1 and doubles.

I also like the idea of being able to make that kind of change very
easily by just editing one SConstruct file.

Iain

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